Adding Weight

I want to ask whether adding weight to a stretch, would be a good idea to build strength and muscle elasticity in stretched positions?

Weighted pike stretches are a good example, and so are skin the cats and planche leans which add a load to the bicep and shoulder muscles while in a stretched position.

I just want to ask if its a good idea to load up passive stretches, like the way coach does with piked stretches?

Weighted stretching works great in a lot of positions, but the technique of many of these 'loaded' stretches is specific.  Pavel has a good volume on this subject, he calls it Loaded Passive Stretching.  I've run into this kind of method in other seminars and it has proven to be quite useful in maximizing flexibility by increasing the strength of the muscles in the stretched position.

It is a good technique for building flexibility, but be careful. Build up the weight slowly so that you know you can take it, and make sure you're always in a position where you can safely drop the weight if you have to. 

There's also a point at which more weight will not help. You'll figure out where that is on your own.

The hardest thing about loaded stretching is that it is hard to maintain correct form in the stretch, particularly in the lower back with weighted pikes.

I tend to find that I am too strong in the hamstrings for loaded stretching to be anywhere near as effective as single leg stretching. I do use it sometimes, but I spend more time on single leg scales these days. It is the same idea as loaded stretching, since I'm effectively doubling the amount of work the muscles have to do (somewhat similar to holding 230 lbs in a weighted pike) but without the issue of rounding the lower back.)

Joshua Naterman said:

There's also a point at which more weight will not help. You'll figure out where that is on your own.

 

The hardest thing about loaded stretching is that it is hard to maintain correct form in the stretch, particularly in the lower back with weighted pikes.

 

I tend to find that I am too strong in the hamstrings for loaded stretching to be anywhere near as effective as single leg stretching. I do use it sometimes, but I spend more time on single leg scales these days. It is the same idea as loaded stretching, since I'm effectively doubling the amount of work the muscles have to do (somewhat similar to holding 230 lbs in a weighted pike) but without the issue of rounding the lower back.)

One stretch that I've found to work fantastically well for pikes (even better than weights and single leg stretching) is this: I stand on a balance beam, with my shoulders parallel to the beam. I then grasp the underside of the beam, and progressively widen my grip to ratchet my upper body closer to the floor. The same technique could be pretty easily adapted to other equipment.

If you're keeping your lumbar spine flat or slightly arched then that is indeed an excellent stretch. You can do the same thing the other way around, by having a band that you have to push down wrapped around a high bar or something, with you standing on an elevated platform. That way you are forced to perform active compression.

The loop bands are nice because you can be inside the loop, and not alter the mechanics of the position.

You have to be pretty flexible already to do what you're doing, which is pretty awesome.

The bottom line is that as long as you are using proper shapes, you will be stretching the correct muscles.

Daniel is having to correct his pike because of this, as he has full compression but the majority of it is spinal flexion and not hip flexion, and this is limiting quite a number of skills from developing further.

Thanks for the idea everyone, also Josh is the majority of the compression in coach's weighted pike hip flexion as well, or is it 50/50 spinal and hip flexion?

By the way are there any good sources to look at such as books/videos, that have stretches that I can load? My shoulder flexibility is pretty low, and I'm trying to work on making them more flexible in every position possible.

It is supposed to be primarily hip flexion. You will flex the thoracic spine, but it should be a gentle curve. In other words, you shouldn't be able to point at a specific area of the spine and say "Aha! That's where most of the flexion is!" You especially should not see much curvature inthe lumbar spine. There WILL be SOME, but not a whole lot. In a good pike it will appear to be nearly straight.

Excessive spinal flexion puts your discs in a position where they are very easy to injure, and you can't fix them when they break.

Be careful with the shoulder stretching, you can cause serious injury to yourself if you try to go hard on that. You need to take shoulder flexibility slowly. Your best friend will be a set of stall bars, or at least a hanging handle in the ceiling around 2-3" away from the wall. That will allow you to do similar shoulder stretches.

Your best sources will probably be Kit's videos and videos on SMR.

Got it I'll take it slowly and build flexibility, when it comes to stretch's like this, they are almost impossible for me to overlap my arms together like this. Could lack of felxibility be the general case, or can my arms physicall not be able to stretch like this?

I also really like his other video on shoulder flexibility using bands. It looks really great.

Hey Joshua,

What are single leg scales and how are they performed?

Also, I understand your concern with excessive spinal flexion and the risks it presents, and I do think that it is a very good idea to develop true hip flexion so that as you have mentioned one can progress on to other skills. But don't you think that it would actually be wise to spend some time developing and conditioning the spine in this weak, disadvantaged position? I understand also that so many people strive to maintain "neutral spine" when lifting heavy loads, but if a person only ever trained themselves in neutral spine, might that not leave them open to injury when the spine is placed in an awkward or potentially injurous position? It seems to me that sometimes things happen in life or play that are unexpected and not perfect, shouldn't we prepare for them as best as we can?

Just wanted to get your thoughts. I like the idea of a supple, mobile spine that is strong and healthy in all movements, positions, and angles. But I also don't have anywhere near the experience with this as you do.

Fluidity - Thank you for sharing that video. That is going to be immensely helpful. I had looked at some of Kit's work, but clearly not thoroughly enough. I hope there are many more gems like that to be found.

Cody H - You are right that it is important to condition the spine in a flexed position. See Coach Sommer's short essay at https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/page/index.html/_/gymnastics-blog/is-spinal-mobility-important-r66 Purely conjecture on my part, but Joshua Naterman's concerns may arise from the fact that in a weighted stretch, you are specifically pushing into extreme ranges of motion where you are least in control and thus most at risk. If using weighted pike stretching as spinal conditioning, I think it would be prudent to make slow, gradual progress and pay particularly careful attention to form.

I do think that we should condition the spine within it's entire normal range of motion, but we have to be careful to take certain structural accomodations into account.

In a hollow hold, the spine is braced on the ground, and this is going to provide a good bit of support. This is important early on.

However, the compressive forces are still very large, as research has shown even with crunches, so it is important to understand that lumbar disc injuries (from prolapse to true herniation and extrusion) may require you to limit your supine hollow work to a straddle or flat tuck. It should not significantly affect planche, though you may need to keep very slight lumbar extension for safety, as this is the natural position of the lumbar spine and is where the compressive forces will be the most evenly dispersed.

If someone DOES have lumbar disc injuries, the most prudent thing for them to do is to, at the very least, avoid the more stressful positions altogether and stick to flat tuck FL and flat tuck PL. I do not know what to think about side levers, but I can only imagine that the same precaution will need to apply.

For those of us who are healthy, don't worry about that stuff. It's hard to injure discs, but once they're blown they are BLOWN. Try not to be stupid, which for this post means:

Please don't load your spine heavily in a strongly flexed position, particularly the lumbar spine. When you flex the spine do so in the thoracic region. That's your entire rib cage. Everything but the bottom 5 bones of your vertebral column. If you need to know where this is, your belly button tends to be at L3-ish.

http://www.espine.com/anatomy-normal.htm is probably your best source for visualizing this. It's better than me talking, but so are most things

Try to remember that our cue is to FLATTEN the lower back. That is not the same thing as moving into true flexion. 

A flat back is flexed when compared to the anatomical normal position of 20-30 degrees of extension in the lumbar spine.

However, that is a relative comparison. A flat back is in true neutral, a linear shape. This is NOT when the discs have the most evenly distributed pressure, it is when the bones are in a straight line. The S-shape is when you have the best pressure distribution along the discs.

Flexion is when you are curved forwards, instead of backwards (which is extension). You don't want much of this in your lumbar spine. This is the recipe for disc injury, particularly during violent movements or under heavy loads. 

Heavy is a relative term. For the reader of this post, whomever you are, for weighted stretching heavy is the weight at which you cannot maintain a flat lumbar spine.

My suggestions for safe weighted stretching are thus:

1) Don't flex your lumbar spine very much, in fact try to keep it pretty flat or even slightly extended. This will force you to develop hamstring and deep hip flexibility, which is what you need for gymnastics.

2) Start off with just your bodyweight, and slowly add weight with each session.

3) You will find that there is a certain weight that represents the point where heavier weights don't get you any further down into the stretch, or make start to make the stretch too intense for comfort. Do not go into this range.

4) Work on single leg flexibility as well as double leg. Done properly, this will help you correct some hip dysfunctions you may not realize you have, and will also make you more mobile.

5) Bodyweight single leg stretches are a lot like a double leg stretch loaded with 50-100% of your full body weight. This allows for loaded stretching without additional spinal pressure, which is a nice way to protect yourself from spinal injury.

Single leg stretches can be extremely intense, as you can easily double the load on the muscle if you don't spot yourself. Take this slowly, you can hurt yourself if you aren't careful (just like anything else).