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Trazition from maltese (swallow) to inverted cross

Started by Gregor, December 14, 2008 · 131 Replies · 51,960 Views

Gregor

Coach do you have any idea how to train this ROM from maltese to iron cross???? I've traied on pulyy system with weights but it's not good beacuse on the half way of ROM, there is no force on a sholders and you just drop to inverted...

The main problem is my sholders wich are going to low in the ROM ->not strong enough, not yet intra-muscular coordination for that movement...

I had idea to doing kip (through maltee) to inverted cross, beacuse it's basicly same movement, but in a swing...

Gregor

Today I have tried, but in a second try it was a litlle progresion...maybe i will acomplished my goals till end of january->I HOPE :oops: :mrgreen:

Coach Sommer

Gregor,

Great question. I think that your suggestion of kipping through the maltese to the invert has a great deal of promise. As your strength increases, simply decrease the amount of kip. I would also recommend being conscientious in keeping the hands pressed slightly in front of the torso at all times while transitioning through the maltese.

Other suggestions include;

1) Being handspotted through the sequence. This is by far the most prevalent method employed for developing this sequence; however I have found that the coach's enthusiasm for spotting this sequence is inversely proportional to the size of the athlete he is training! :shock:

2) Perform very slow negatives lowering from the inverted cross to the maltese. I would perform these on a set of low rings, so that it is easy to jump back to the inverted cross after each rep.

Be cautious also in ensuring that you are performing enough posterior delt work (rowing movements, reverse flyes, victorian work etc) to balance out all of the anterior delt work that you are doing with the maltese/invert cross combination.

Please keep us updated on your progress. I would also be curious to hear what weekly schedule and workout structure for this combination that you finally settle on.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Gregor

Yea we have a litlle problem with spotting :) We must repair the rings with adjustable height (one ring is lower then the other->we already repaird it but I guess not good enough :roll: ) So for the time being I'm stuck at the normal rings...

The first problem is like you pointed out are hand position (to close to body).

My reverses are from inverted trough maltese->cross->victorian I'm thinking to do it with weighted belt (not west) with 2 or 1 kilos (aprox. 4 or 2 lbs). Because my kip to maltese today were relativy easy with 2 kilos aded.

We don't have training scheme yet, beacuse we just started this recently (after nationals->just competition routines and induvidual strenght and swing elements wich are in routine) and we made some videos for analysis.

Gregor

I'll post previous strenght training, maybe will be interesting, maybe not.

Previous strenght training:

"training 1"

1. azarian -> maltese -> BACK LEVER ->kip to maltese -> planche-> slowely to back lever and a litlle stop at maltese 2x (with spotter-my coach)

2. from HS slowely lower to inverted hang (liltlle stop in inverted cross 2x3

3. azarian -> nakayama -> pineda -> push to support - >iron cross 2x

4. iron cross 10-15 seconds 2x (second sometimes to maximum)

"training 2"

1. azariann -> maltese 2-3x

2. kip to maltese 3x last max (10s or above)

3. back swing to maltese 3x

4. giant swig to inverted 3x

5. variations of victorian

"Pre strenght training"

this is more or less body position training...

1. planche training http://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/vi ... =13&t=1011 3x5

2. from inverted planche to victorian (in the same way like planche training -> triceps torture :oops: ) 3x5

3. from L seat press with straight body trough planche to HS (with spottter) 3x3 or 3x4

4. germans 5

All hold were 2s except where says max or something else...

So I will have something simmiliar (more turned to my new goals of course) I gues at one training more spotting and at the other more alone...

Gregor

Todays strenght training not complet yet ->changes will definitely come....

1.From japannese handstand to swallow (not on flor vut between two landing matss (spieth mats for landing) with spotter (coach) 3x3

not so good exercise, I didn't like it and didn't feel much of muscles...

2.kip to inverted cross with spotter 4x (filmed)

3rd attempt fas quite good, litlle problems to lock arms in inverted...

3.combination: azarian2s -> press to maltese2s (swallow);kip to maltese2s ->nakayama 2s with weighted west 2kg 1x

4.kip to maltese 10s 1x

5.inverted cross and slovely trouhg swallow, cross and to victorian (inverted swallow) - no holds 2x

6.giant swing to inverted cross 2s and slowely to victorian trough swallow and iron cross 4x

I think, I holded the victorian in 3rd attempt -> but that is unfortunatly just an subjective opinion, because at that attmept nobody looked to confirm it

7.swingig back and forward in iron cross 10 swings

8. biceps work...

Coach do you have any opinions, suggestions? all ideas are welcome, because nobody knows everything...

Coach Sommer
1.From japannese handstand to swallow (not on flor vut between two landing matss (spieth mats for landing) with spotter (coach) 3x3

not so good exercise, I didn't like it and didn't feel much of muscles...

Gregor,

Thank you for sharing.

I have one small recommendation for your maltese presses; rather than performing this on mats, I believe that you will find this a much more valuable exercise if performed on a low single rail. With a spotter's assistance, kick into a handstand with a very wide under-grip. From this position perform the maltese presses. Using the single rail will greatly increase your leverage for this movement.

What elbow pre-hab movements are your performing after your ring strength work?

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Gregor

very very good idea. I'll try it next time :P THanks Coach!

I don't do elbow prehab :oops: ...I don't need it-never had a problem with elbows, in the matter of a fact a have never even felt a singal pain in elbows :shock:

I think it has a lot to do with my big arms and the iron cross tehnic (like Gelder's tehnic). I'm the only one in the gym with this tehnic and the only one with no pain in elbows.

Something to cosider :arrow: after a maltese work on a rings or rutine on rings I have a tired biceps (biceps protects elbow). So to avoid that pain I do a biceps work (dumbels and so on....Chins and puls are to easy).Results are less pain in biceps after workout.

But I must do alot of shoulders prehab (it's something more good warm-out, then the pure strenght prehab), with p.bars dips (it's not realy a dip, but twisting in a benat arm position).

Valentin

A suggesting for training the transition especially in the beginning, especially if the coach is not overly enthusiastic about spotting it consistently. Try doing it with the arms through the ring straps.. Damn.. i thought it was going to be easier to explain haha. (i am talking adjustable height rings)

You know how the rings straps (well some ring straps do) are not saw together completely...you can put your arm through them and grap the rings from the outside rather than inside. This way the upper part of the ring is about 1/2 between your wrist and elbow. (you probably know about this already, but maybe not and may be of interest to others). Essentially in positions like the cross holding the rings in this method you have 1/2ed the force of application, making the motion much much easier. Well in this way you can work multiple repetitions of maltese tranz to cross in a row. Its a good starting tool

You can train all sorts of skill in this way as well. Good training tool.

Hope that made sense

Gregor

I understood you already the first time :lol:

1.I can't gotrough straps, beacuse straps are sewed together

2.It changes your center of body-mass

I have a spotter (my coach), there was just a problem with rings defection (height adjustable rings), so I couldn't get spotting. Now it is ok.

Gregor

Today we tried on the rail with under grip. The exercise is much more efective!!!Ok, we had some truble for spotting (litlle to much help, second time litlle to much help on a sholders and third time I was not going far enough with shoulders in descent). We (I and coach) did it 3x3. It will be better with training or two (both will know how much of what in ROM).

Although we didn't train victorian that much, It's closer then ROM from maltese to inverted :shock: :shock: We'll see...

Gregor

todays training:

:arrow:muscle-tonus work:

1. 10 push ups

2. cca. 10 dips and shoulders prep.

3. 3x stradle planche with weighted west (2kg) press to handstand

:arrow:real strenght training:

1. 3x3 rail-japannese to maltese press up to japannese handstand (spotter)

litlle problems with form of back (last 3 were alot better)

2. 3x1 kip to inverted (trough maltese)-between each rep 1 minut of rest (spotter)

3. 3x from handstand to inverted cross and press up to hand stand (no holds on inverted, just the third one 2s) - spotter

4. 3x1 from HS to inverte AND hold 2s (pause between each attempt 30s)- with spotter first two, last alone

5. 2x victorian (transition to victorian is a secret :oops: :mrgreen: ) -spotter

6. 2x with weighted west 2kg: azarian 3s/3s press to maltese 3s/5s, kip to maltese 3s/5s, nakayama 3s/3s, back swing to maltese 0s/5s

First seconds are from the first round, second one from the second round

7. 1x without west azarian3s press to maltese 5s, kip to maltese 5s, nakayama 3s, back swing to maltese 5s

8. 2x giant swing to inverted (very hard, too tired)

9. swinging iron cross support 10 swings

10. biceps-triceps work

Alot of pause between diffrent exercises!!!

At 14th of Januar, I will add 1 kilo to the west.

Blairbob

Gregor, how about using something like these:

http://www.gymsupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3391

http://ringtraining.com/shop/equipment/elite-strength-trainer.html

Perhaps these are either out of your budget due to shipping or import costs.

It is possible to make a pair with some tools and labor.

http://patrickhdonnelly.blogspot.com/2008/08/diy-iron-cross-trainer.html

I just sent the link for Tyler's to my friend and he commented he used to have a pair that he used for his boys when he trained boys 15 years ago ( he trains WAG now ).

Gregor

We have something very simillar to the first one, but it's crap for doing this, only for crosses at the begining (and it's hard to rotate elbows with this tehnic-elbows are turned).

The second one looks alot better because of strap...But again it changes your center of body mass and angl is very diffrent with this or without (never liked doing swallow on this) :arrow: so I don't know how big effect will have this on a real thing.

I prefer more or less just spotting. I learned all holds trough spotting (iron cross was accomplished at first try without previous spotting):azarians, nakayamas, swallows, inverted crosses.

For now I like the modified exercise on one rail, that Coach Sommer recomended and kip to iron cross :arrow: all with spotting

PS:I can't wait on a monday to train again, after the nationals I train like never befor :arrow: hard trainings with smile on my face :D no more of two months of boring rutines :mrgreen: But we will start gain in a month hahahaha

Blairbob

Could you set up a harness and pulley that either self adjusts or uses a spotter to pull or release? Still probably easier than self spotting, especially when dealing with adult sized gymnasts.

Gregor
Blairbob said:
Could you set up a harness and pulley that either self adjusts or uses a spotter to pull or release?

Could you explain a litlle more :oops:

Blairbob said:
Still probably easier than self spotting, especially when dealing with adult sized gymnasts.

It's not that hard to spott, because I need just a litlle help and with each strenght training (monday, wednsday, friday) goes easier with spotting due to better muscle coordination and coach-gymnast coordination.

Blairbob

If you setup a device that has a harness the gymnast will attach around their midsection and attach to rope over a beam of some sort or pulleys, you could

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YETgTZUTZo A bit like this.

We used to have one set up at a gym I worked at on rings for spotting advanced dismounts as well as the flipping elements while swinging rings.

You can setup a spotting harness that doesn't require a spotter as it self adjusts with either weight or pulleys.

Gregor

Ok, I get it :D We thought about a pully system with weights as counterbalance. So instead of direct alignment from harness to the rings, cables go from harness trough pully, where are weights and the rings are fixed. I hope it's understandably :oops: :D

Now spotter-coach hodls me with one hand on a shoulders and other hand on a lower part of a pectoralis (where spoon lies).

Valentin

awesome thanks for sharing these... Great to see what others are doing, and its nice to see such nice form and clean holds

Gregor

I've done kip to inverted cross without of any assistance!!! with slight pike body :oops:

I was supprised, I wasn't expecting it so quickly :wink: I was calculating it for March :mrgreen:

So our program (mine and coaches of mine) works even better then I thought, but soon changes will be needed.

PS:I hope I'll get the video :oops: When others film me, I rarly get any video, even from nationals, month ago, I don't have single photo or video :cry:

Blairbob

Congrats! Is that a D? I only could find back kip to invert cross.No It WAS an E (straight body E, piked D).