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Started by pepsiaddict, December 12, 2008 · 35 Replies · 33,163 Views
Can someone tell me how should i train to get even close what women in following video is doing?
If the video doesn't work just put youtube words FREE SUPPORT SAGITAL BALANCE. I believe this is static-active flexibility but i don't have any idea how to train for that exercise.
Something I've always wondered myself.
I don't have much experience, and cannot do it myself, but here is, how I'd go about it:
train sagital balance
guess, that's kind of a prerequisite for free sagital balance.
Then go into the position with the help of the hands, slowly lessen the pressure of the hands, but try to hold the leg in the position using active flexibility.
Another way would be to go as far as you can without support of the hands, then use the hands to just go a bit more into the position and leave the hands away while lowering as controlled as possible back to the position where you can hold it.
Hope this makes any sense 
Basically the same idea I had too. 
Always wondered myself. Perhaps training standing leg lift. Currently mine is under horizontal. Maybe a lot of leg swings and split training. Probably wall or partner standing split training.
As well as improving static/passive flexibility, you could also try the following approach to improving your ability to hold the position actively at extremes of ROM. This should be done with good posture, and no assistance from the hands/external objects ...since a strong contraction of the quads/hip flexors will a) build the necessary strength, and b) help with stretching the hamstring/glutes (Google: reciprocal inhibition for more info on that):
* If you can hold the position for more than 8-10 seconds, then you need to lift your knee higher!
Regards,
George.
Basically PNF. Instead of just lifting the leg to train this, I lift the knee as high as possible and then extend the leg. Gets me a few extra inches.
The exercise that George described (hip extensions; see George's post above for an in depth exercise description) is a truly outstanding movement for developing hip strength. As he mentioned, it is imperative that the hip angle remain constant at all times during the extension and retraction.
I have my athletes perform 1x10 extending each leg forward, 1x10 extending each leg sideways and 1x10 extending forward and then circling sideways all the way to the rear and then returning back to the front (this constitutes one rep of "hip circles"). I prefer to perform hip circles with a table or chair next to me forcing me to keep the leg correctly elevated during the movement. My personal preference is for hip extension work to be performed at the end of leg strength.
Once you can perform the movement correctly and find it relatively easy, simply add ankle weights.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Blairbob said:Basically PNF. Instead of just lifting the leg to train this, I lift the knee as high as possible and then extend the leg. Gets me a few extra inches.
bob,
as far as i know, pnf means first stretching as far as you can with good form, then contract the stretched muscle forcefully for a set amount of time, just to stretch further and hold for a few seconds after releasing the contraction. as far as i understand it (from pavels "relax into stretch"), pnf is good for building passive flexibility.
I got two questions about extending legs forwards and sideways: Should it be a kick or it must be timed like the 3:1:3 or something like that? and when you extend the leg sideways, toes must be pointing up? Thanks.
Hip extensions should definitely NOT be a kick, but a slow controlled movement. A tempo of 313 is not necessarily required, but that is certainly the right idea.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
You could also treat them as a static hold, like L-sit, etc.
George.
uhhh, hate to break it to everyone, but this is what would be called in ballet an "adagio". which is just controlling your leg in extreme ROM. (adagio refers to the slow music these movements are performed to). it is of course extremely essential for dancing in many styles. here are some other ways i have seen people train for it. mostly what you need is the flexibility, i've seen extremely weak girls do this no problem because they are so flexible.
of course, one important thing to notice is that if you want to get your leg all the way up there, there has to be some shifting of the hip to make room for the thigh. something you need to be able to do is grab your thigh and pull it all the way to your body. you can do this lying down to make it easier. remember to keep your "standing" leg straight. notice how much you have to slant your hip to get your thigh flush with your torso (if you can get it there at all). try to minimize this, but some movement is definitely necessary.
once you can get your leg to your chest laying down, you can stand up and can try to step on something high (like a high step or something) and get your thigh to your chest that way. then try to stand by yourself and pull your thigh up to your chest. notice that when you try to pull your thigh to your chest by your self how much harder it is.
back on the floor, you can try extending your leg by pulling your foot with both hands from the thigh to chest position. of course you can also try a front split and lean over your front leg so that your chest touches your leg. if you can't do this or don't have splits all the way down, well you've got plenty to work on .
if you can do this on the floor, you can try extending your leg after you bring you knee to you chest while standing. you can do this by leaning against something sturdy and grabbing your heel with both hands and pulling. if you are already this flexible than i'm impressed! if you can get your leg up there and your leg is flush with your body, try letting go and seeing how far your leg drops down and try and hold it there. you can always get your leg higher when you hold it there first, and its good to practice this. you can also try to swing your leg up there and catch it, which is harder. oh yeah also since this is dance you should do it all with toes pointed (it just seems natural for me to do it that way) and of course you can do it to the side too, but that takes more discussion on how to do it properly.
this is all basic stuff in ballet and other dance training (i actually do chinese dance). if you don't think men can get this level of flexibility just watch this from a dance competition in china
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp3sD-qJmbM
hope this helps!!!!
ben
There is a tremendous difference between passive flexibility and active flexibility; the ability to perform a full passive split is in no way an indication that the athlete in question possesses a large active flexibility ROM. But more specifically, that is not something that we are concerned with in this situation. Within the GB WODs, hip extensions are solely being used to develop increased hip stability in whatever ROM the athlete currently possesses.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
i guess i was referring to the original question and to the video of the girl lifting her leg all the way up there. i know that in dance, active and passive flexibility are always worked in concert. are you really saying coach that if you can't do a passive split you could still lift your leg to a position of that woman in the video? i don't quite see the logic in that. thanks,
ben
No, I am saying that the ability to perform a passive full split often has little correlation with the degree of active flexibility which someone one possesses. Or simply stated, that someone could have a full split and yet be unable to lift their leg much higher than their knee when standing.
As you mentioned, passive and active flexibility training must go hand in hand to maximize athletic potential.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
I think Coach meant that even if you have great passive flexibility there is no garantee that it will correlate to your active flexibility. For example: Although I'm able to go down to a full split, I can barely lift my leg higher than 90degrees which alot other people can even if they are no way near passive full split.
BUT it should and will definately work the other way around.
EDIT: Few seconds too late.
Thank you so much everybody for the great advices so far, keep it coming. I have tried your tips and found great things that i need to train. What i found out intresting is that doing leg swing and trying to hold as high as possible is that if i swing too fast my leg will also come down too fast. But when i take the speed off but still keeping it swing not a raise it feels where it should be. Also that bent leg to straight movement feels hard and efficient.
I did for 7 weeks almost daily two exercise that didn't have any affect at all. First one was simply RAISING leg as high as possible 10 reps each leg and 10-20 sets daily. And the second one was sitting on floor back against wall and raising one leg at the time, same amount as before. Those exercises did feel in my middle thigh and in hip flexors but didn't improve a thing. Comments?
i guess since i've always trained in a dance setting that always stresses control of the leg at extreme ROM, i take for granted the correlation of passive and active flexibility training. in chinese dance for sure, there are always three components to flexibility: passive stretching (and an extreme amount of this by the way), kicking (always after stretching), and control of various kinds (leg lifts and different holds as i described before). this produces some amazing athletes/dancers with amazing flexibility and control. anyway, hope this can help.
ben
Before gymnastics I had all of my splits and with a little bit of practice got oversplits. I still have my middle split but don't practice my front split often enough to get them all the way down but the last time I tried them was "cold" too.
Anyways, by the time I started training active flexibility in passing I was in my 20's and thus I had very excellent passive flexibility and poor active flexibility in my hip flexors. We never trained any active flexibility in our martial arts training ( karate ) nor was it stressed.
I am the poster child for obtaining/retaining passive flexibility without active flexibility.
Active flexibility is the combination of strength and passive flexibility. Essentially your active flexibility can be very good which will improve your passive, because with the contraction of the agonist to raise the limb to a maximal position the antagonist has to relax. IF the antagonist is not have the necessary passive flexibility to you will essentially be inducing a passive stretch of the antagonist. This is know as Static Active stretching. Its usually not done in gymnastics because kids develop passive flexibly much more aggressively, and early on compared to active, which comes on later, and quite frankly its not trained all that much from my observation (which is totally!!!! a mistake and incorrect in my opinion).
Studies have show that active flexibility is best developed using static active stretching (best for beginners and individuals who have not already capable of large ROM in passive stretches), static holds (raise your leg at max hold of 5-10sec lower and repeat), using therabands and doing dynamic kicks and attempts are resisting the negative (great if you have a strong passive flexibility base).
Individuals who usually show great active but not always great (or relatively equal) passive flexibly are martial artists. In martial arts from talking to people they spend a LOT more time doing kicks, and developing active and dynamic stretches than passive. An example of this is i knew of a martial artist who said he would put little post it notes on a kick bag all over, and than with one leg (while obviously standing on the other) would slowly peel each sticker with his toes.. So like in the exercise above (where you raise the knee up to your chest and extend the knee after). He said he has up to 100 stickers plus. I know a take-won-do friend who can kick my head of but can't do the splits. His dynamic flexibly and active is superior to his passive.
Passive flexibility only show the potential, it by no means dictates your ability. I can do a front leg split on both legs, but i struggle to raise and hold my leg at 80deg. Why? lack of specific active flexibility training.
For more information on flexibility refer to these two article i wrote (a bit of shameless promotion, but are actually pretty darn accurate. In writing these articles i reviewed about 60-70%, my estimate based on citations in articles, and on what is available on MEDLINE, of the available research on flexibility, the other stuff is either irrelevant or outdated. or i just could not get my hands on the full articles.)
Stretching scientifically part I: myths, facts, the science
Stretching Scientifically Part II: Stretching methods, the pros and cons to each method
Excellent discussion. A special thank you in particular to Benzhen and Valentin for taking the time to share such valuable information.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Here is an answer by Tomas Kurz
Question:
If my objective is to raise my leg over my head and keep it there; what training regimen should I use?
Answer:
First use both dynamic leg raises and isometric stretches to give you desired range of motion so you can raise your leg there. Next, to be able to keep your leg in raised position, do appropriate Static Active Flexibility Exercises.
My pleasure.
Yeep sounds about right Terry, pretty much what i said in like 1 sentence..really have to work on that (me). Thomas Kurz is regarded by many as an expert in the field of flexibility so there we have it.
i have a question i think is related to this to ask: i work with a lot of guys who are building flexibility later in their teen years. the ones who are more muscularly developed have a problem that their thigh muscles "get in the way" when doing splits and extreme ROM movements with their legs. this is also reflected in the inability to pull the leg bent all the way up to their chest with out considerable effort or pain in the hip flexors. i just wanted to ask the Coach or others what they think of this phenomenon and how/if they work this issue. this also effects the flatness of the back in squats too (because if the front of the torso cannot lay flat on the thighs, the back has to round). thanks for all the discussion.