Full Planche Is Impossible?

emos said:

 

Are you concerned by the apparent lack of case studies?

Given my knowledge base, no, because case studies require people following a specific protocol.

Since that protocol is not yet fully public, it makes sense that the subset of people who stalled out due to bad training but then got on the program and suceeded is limited to this community. Within this community, however, there are quite a lot of success stories. 

This is the one I am most familiar with, because I was part of it.

When I first met Daniel Burnham he had spent a bunch of time on training but hadn't gotten much of anywhere. We met up a few times and I used what I learned at the seminars, along with my personal knowledge and expertise in terms of movement analysis, and we corrected his training. 

All of a sudden he started making progress. Fast forward 6 months: He went to one of the seminars, followed the program, and from the time I first met him to now (maybe 8 months, Daniel?) he went from a so-so tuck planche to a pretty solid 3 second straddle.

Sounds like success to me.

I think we'll be seeing a lot more of this type of story as time goes on.

Today i had the woinderful opportunity to train with Matteo Morandi (and i'm sure you know him) for 8 hours analyzing different strength elements, balance, stretching and much more. From his point of view i'm one of the few person who has a low possibility to develop full planche and manna. His points were for planche my big muscles over the knee in anterior and posterior part of legs and for manna on one side big lats that can be a problem for pushing the hips forward ( if i maintan shoulders distance for hands placement) and big legs muscles near the hips joint so that the hips compression is locked from muscles at the beginning of the lift.

i can put all myself into planche and manna training so the time is not a problem...

but there is a point where the body structure is real obstacle?

thanks

alex87 said:

Today i had the woinderful opportunity to train with Matteo Morandi (and i'm sure you know him) for 8 hours analyzing different strength elements, balance, stretching and much more. From his point of view i'm one of the few person who has a low possibility to develop full planche and manna. His points were for planche my big muscles over the knee in anterior and posterior part of legs and for manna on one side big lats that can be a problem for pushing the hips forward ( if i maintan shoulders distance for hands placement) and big legs muscles near the hips joint so that the hips compression is locked from muscles at the beginning of the lift.

i can put all myself into planche and manna training so the time is not a problem...

but there is a point where the body structure is real obstacle?

 

thanks

Wow it's so cool that you get to train with world class athletes! I remember that you said you've met Yuri Chechi before too. I can see why those points listed by him can be an obstacle for those skills, but you already have a full planche right?

Joshua Naterman said:

 

 

When I first met Daniel Burnham he had spent a bunch of time on training but hadn't gotten much of anywhere. We met up a few times and I used what I learned at the seminars, along with my personal knowledge and expertise in terms of movement analysis, and we corrected his training. 

 

How did you guys first meet? I'd like to train with you guys sometime before I visit my first seminar! 

There are always points where one's structure becomes an obstacle, and I would definitely accept that it is much more likely for manna than planche.

Manna requires a lot of strength in small muscle groups, as well as very good shoulder mobility. Traps, rear delts, and triceps will never compete with the deltoids, serratus anterior, and pecs in terms of raw external torque as measured from the hands.

Planche requires a lot of raw strength in large muscle groups, and it's going to be easier to meet the strength requirement for planche than the strength requirement for Manna as bodies get heavier.

None of us know if it can be done by someone our size and build, we'll just have to find out!

Paolo: we met on the boards here, and I can't remember if he asked or I offered, but I ended up meeting him at GA Tech and we worked out!

If you're ever in the Atlanta area, we can definitely meet up. Just let me know!

yes i met yuri 5 years ago and another time in the 2012 fitness reunion here in italy..he was representing the dream machine product for fitness purposes..

yes full planche..but seriously i've never had a solid full, maybe 1 second and half. but the form was very far from coach standard  (hips high, scapulas retracted, hips closed ) all those factors let the skill easier..of course also Matteo said to me that a very good straddle is a reasonable goal for me...much more than a good full planche...

this is his planche, i was so impressed when he said to me "after the olympics game i stopped for one entire month because was approximately 2 years that i never stopped for more than 1 day" and he performed full planche on floor and on pbars for 12 sec without a warm up!!!! i saw also some italian women olympics members!!    are not human

Joshua Naterman said:

 

When I first met Daniel Burnham he had spent a bunch of time on training but hadn't gotten much of anywhere. We met up a few times and I used what I learned at the seminars, along with my personal knowledge and expertise in terms of movement analysis, and we corrected his training. 

 

All of a sudden he started making progress. Fast forward 6 months: He went to one of the seminars, followed the program, and from the time I first met him to now (maybe 8 months, Daniel?) he went from a so-so tuck planche to a pretty solid 3 second straddle.

 

Yea It was almost 9 months.  I struggled with adv. tuck for a while and then with a few pointers I was able to convert it to straddle after some hard work of course.  Its amazing how much doing exercises correctly helps.  Ive been kind of silent on my progress except in the graduate logs.  I will probably do a compilation video at the end of my cycle.  Lets just say Ive now gotten back lever, straddle planche, handstand pushups on rings (feet on straps) and several other exercises under my belt.  The stability and base strength has been the biggest thing I have gained.  This isn't really tangible but I guarantee it will become so in the next year.  I still don't consider myself terribly far along and can only imagine what another year will bring.  

alex87 said:

 

yes i met yuri 5 years ago and another time in the 2012 fitness reunion here in italy..he was representing the dream machine product for fitness purposes..

yes full planche..but seriously i've never had a solid full, maybe 1 second and half. but the form was very far from coach standard  (hips high, scapulas retracted, hips closed ) all those factors let the skill easier..of course also Matteo said to me that a very good straddle is a reasonable goal for me...much more than a good full planche...

this is his planche, i was so impressed when he said to me "after the olympics game i stopped for one entire month because was approximately 2 years that i never stopped for more than 1 day" and he performed full planche on floor and on pbars for 12 sec without a warm up!!!! i saw also some italian women olympics members!!    are not human

 

 

Alex

 

Wow, you're so lucky! If you ever talk to him again can you ask him how much max weight he can do for RLL (Reverse Leg Lifts), and how many Erbs he can do? And also, how to increase endurance for holding the planche for as long as 12 seconds? 

This is my current level of full planche as of 2 days ago:

I want to be able to do 10 seconds by the end of next year.

This is my theory - you need to be able to do a RLL 10 second static hold with 50% - 75% BW for perfect planche push ups and and 90% - 100% to execute Erbs. (Is that even possible for an elite gymnast???)

This past year, I only trained the isometric planche progressions and presses. I didn't practice much core exercises save for HLL once or twice a month. I didn't do hollow body holds/rocks or arch body holds/rocks. I didn't do any of the dynamic bent arm strength planche progressions that often (which I totally regret.) And I never did any of the back exercises listed in the BtGB book.

I decided to go to my local gym to try out my max RLL. I started at 10 lbs and kept adding 5 lbs. I was able to do 35 lbs for 5 - 6 seconds, but was unable to do 40 lbs.

This was the very first time I ever attempted this exercise. So to hold a full planche for 2 - 3 seconds, I need to be able to hold a static RLL for ~30%+ of my BW for 5 - 6 seconds. Too bad i don't have something high enough like a pommel horse to elevate my feet :/ The longer you can hold a RLL with heavier weight, the more repetitions you can bust out for Erbs and planche push ups.

What do you think?

As a PL specific exercise, not too helpful because of the arched back component. To make it PL specific, you need to keep a round back, strong abs at all times and do the lift solely from the leg movement.

from a pure strength pov the back lever and the planche have the same degreee of intensity over the lumbar muscles, in both of them you have to control the "back flat" using your abs so to much arching is not permitted. for this reason the point of cole is just perfect. to get more planche sec, train planche.

i'm one of the proof of this thing. i can hold BL at least for 40-45 second but i have only 4-5 seconds of great straddle planche. lumbar spine can provide assistance to lift your legs but not to compensate the rest of your BW in this difficult leverage position.

Even then, unless your back is where you get tired it's not going to help.

I'm pretty sure common sense will tell you that your shoulder girdle is where your main limitations will always be.

I do not support the idea of keeping a flexed lumbar spine during RLL, that is an easy way to increase the risk of a disc injury. Do not over-extend either (super arch), that can also cause problems.

Instead, aim to keep the natural curvature of the spine throughout the movement. That means a slight arch in the lower back.

As mentioned, move only at the hips. This is difficult to learn but will come with time.

Josh summed it up very nicely. Planche push-ups would not require more lower back strength than a static planche so Erbs would require the same amount of lower back strength as a planche press handstand which you already have.

Cole Dano said:

As a PL specific exercise, not too helpful because of the arched back component. To make it PL specific, you need to keep a round back, strong abs at all times and do the lift solely from the leg movement.

Do you mind doing  video demo? How do I lift solely from the leg movement? Do I need to move my hips farther or closer from the edge.

alex87 said:

from a pure strength pov the back lever and the planche have the same degreee of intensity over the lumbar muscles, in both of them you have to control the "back flat" using your abs so to much arching is not permitted. for this reason the point of cole is just perfect. to get more planche sec, train planche.

i'm one of the proof of this thing. i can hold BL at least for 40-45 second but i have only 4-5 seconds of great straddle planche. lumbar spine can provide assistance to lift your legs but not to compensate the rest of your BW in this difficult leverage position.

Do you think weighted back lever with either a weighted vest or ankle weights to be a good exercise? I think ankles would be the best because it is farthest from your center of gravity. 

Joshua Naterman said:

Even then, unless your back is where you get tired it's not going to help.

 

I'm pretty sure common sense will tell you that your shoulder girdle is where your main limitations will always be.

 

I do not support the idea of keeping a flexed lumbar spine during RLL, that is an easy way to increase the risk of a disc injury. Do not over-extend either (super arch), that can also cause problems.

 

Instead, aim to keep the natural curvature of the spine throughout the movement. That means a slight arch in the lower back.

 

As mentioned, move only at the hips. This is difficult to learn but will come with time.

You're right. I was wondering if my back was the weakest link to increasing endurance for a planche isometric hold because Coach mentioned it at the end of Planche progression section. Since I never do any back exercises at all, I figured it was time to do some. 

I have to admit it´s sometimes a struggle to be motivated for learning very hard skills like the planche or manna. After about 1 year of training, 2-3 times a week, I can do a FL with one leg straight for maybe 5 sec and a full BL for a short time, but I still can only hold a tucked planche for maybe only 10 sec. The manna seems to hard to learn so I skipped that one, I´m getting a bit better on finding the balance on the handstand lately, but being able to slowly lift yor legs from the floor up to a free standing handstand seems also a very hard skill.

I don´t know if this is normal progress or not for a guy that is about 84 kg and 182 cm? I wasn´t real strong when starting with this type of training but having a background in "normal" strenghttraining I guess I was no weakling either, maybe 10 pullups and could do a standing overhead press about 65 kg, bench probably a bit over 100kg.

However; I started this type of training because it was fun and I had a silly idea it was more "functional strenght" and maybe also gave a better looking physique. But let´s say an athlete that needs upperbody strenght, like a wrestler, would he have an edge on his oppnonent if he spend much time to develop a planche, manna or  free handstand? Or is these skills no more "functional" for a wrestler than spending time on regular strenghttraining like dips, deadlift, squats and less technical skills. Is it really no point in trying to get a planche or manna if you train for health and strenght, but are not going to be a gymnast where such skills are needed?

Dan, I think you're doing well.

About the wrestler question: Out of all of that, they'd get the most out of a proper handstand. 

What, why the handstand? Well... because of the shoulder mobility required for a proper handstand. If they can actually achieve a good body line they will have very, very good scapular mobility and that is the base for good shoulder mobility, which is the base for quite a lot of escapes and reversals.

Planche still gives lots of benefits, much like bench press, but with the added benefit of more proprioception and body tension that mimics a lot of control position transitions, just as bench press mimics a lot of escapes from the bottom position on your back. For a wrestler I would recommend both.

dan77 said:

I have to admit it´s sometimes a struggle to be motivated for learning very hard skills like the planche or manna. After about 1 year of training, 2-3 times a week, I can do a FL with one leg straight for maybe 5 sec and a full BL for a short time, but I still can only hold a tucked planche for maybe only 10 sec. The manna seems to hard to learn so I skipped that one, I´m getting a bit better on finding the balance on the handstand lately, but being able to slowly lift yor legs from the floor up to a free standing handstand seems also a very hard skill.

 

I don´t know if this is normal progress or not for a guy that is about 84 kg and 182 cm? I wasn´t real strong when starting with this type of training but having a background in "normal" strenghttraining I guess I was no weakling either, maybe 10 pullups and could do a standing overhead press about 65 kg, bench probably a bit over 100kg.

Hi i starded the gymnastic training about 2 years ago and yes it is hard to learn the Planche and Levers. I'm an "old" guy so i started with 40 years and it is much harder than for an 10 year old boy. I Think you are on the right way ist is better for your body to make slow progress than to fast.

Joshua Naterman said:

There are always points where one's structure becomes an obstacle, and I would definitely accept that it is much more likely for manna than planche.

 

Manna requires a lot of strength in small muscle groups, as well as very good shoulder mobility. Traps, rear delts, and triceps will never compete with the deltoids, serratus anterior, and pecs in terms of raw external torque as measured from the hands.

 

Planche requires a lot of raw strength in large muscle groups, and it's going to be easier to meet the strength requirement for planche than the strength requirement for Manna as bodies get heavier.

 

None of us know if it can be done by someone our size and build, we'll just have to find out!

How come there are girls who can actually press into mannas without momentum, but no girls have ever done full planche before? I think if you can get really good compression and hamstring flexibility then the strength requirement substantially decreases which may allow girls to do it, but not full planche.

This is a good question. I think the main reason is probably that the girls just don't train for it. Their floor routines are all about explosiveness and spine flexibility, not maximal upper body strength. I'm sure there are plenty of women who can achieve a flat straddle or full planche if it were a focus of training.

The men are more about explosiveness and maximal upper body strength, with much less of an emphasis on spinal flexibility.

I think each gender plays to its own inherent strengths, as well as traditional societal values.

Given how little society rewards displays of womanly strength, and how few of the women who do strength training are focused on body-weight exercises, I'd say it's quite foolish to draw conclusions about what bodyweight exercises women are theoretically capable of based solely on what has or hasn't been done. 

Good points! I suppose there can be women who can achieve full planche since there are women who can bench press over 300 pounds raw and all those Chinese and Russian female olympic weightlifters lifting crazy numbers.

it alot of that stuff just sounds like bro science!