Back Squat Atg

I just joined a gym a few months ago and started squatting. I decided to go back to 0 weight and use full range butt to heels (atg) squats. I'm following a program i found on Poliquin's site that calls for full range 1 and 1/4 squats so that's what I was trying to do here....

I realize I'm coming up more than 1/4 before going back down and then all the way up, but my main concern is how my hips/lower back seem to curl into a posterior tilt at the very bottom. I wasn't aware of this until seeing this video and I was sure I was maintaining a tight arch, but I guess not. Will this get better with diligent practice or is there some kind of mobility I should be doing to help?

I'm certainly not an expert, so take it with grain of salt.

Try to focus on tensing quads when you get up and see if that helps. This is what helped me to reduce the tilt.

I think you should stretch a lot your hammies... they seem to be a little tight... and that is what causes the pelvic tilt mentioned...

When using light weights there is not big issue... but the problem is when you have big weights, if you still having that tilt then your lower back will be in painful troubles...

mobility stuff before working out, between sets, and stretching after your workout... PNF is great for hammies.

not necessary hamstrings, maybe ankles, hips, piriformis or glutes.

You should go only as low as you can maintain flat back.

spyro7800 said:

not necessary hamstrings, maybe ankles, hips, piriformis or glutes.

You should go only as low as you can maintain flat back.

I agree. You get down to where your glutes cover your calves before your back gets wonky, so I think you should restrict your motion to that depth.

You may also want to consider doing a low-bar squat and seeing if that helps.

I have extremely tight hamstrings, and I find that the low bar position helps a lot. I don't back squat much, but when I do I tend to prefer the low bar.

look at that video. glenn pendlay is standing right there coaching. look at the lifter. every experienced lifter i've seen at the very bottom has their tailbone curling. you curl before you hit that point so you can do better but i've never seen a PERFECTLY straight back at the very bottom (maybe its just physiology). I'm not saying it's right or wrong, simply stating that if you go around youtube and watch the experienced/olympic/known lifters, you'll see much of the same thing as in that video.

once again im not endorsing it. just food for thought.

Joey Frad said:

look at that video. glenn pendlay is standing right there coaching. look at the lifter. every experienced lifter i've seen at the very bottom has their tailbone curling. you curl before you hit that point so you can do better but i've never seen a PERFECTLY straight back at the very bottom (maybe its just physiology). I'm not saying it's right or wrong, simply stating that if you go around youtube and watch the experienced/olympic/known lifters, you'll see much of the same thing as in that video.

once again im not endorsing it. just food for thought.

That is pretty interesting.... I do have tight hamstrings and calves so I'm going to spend some extra time stretching those out and check back in a couple months to see if it looks any different.

Elevate your heels somehow by wearing a proper set of shoes or plates.

Slight pelvic tilt isn't the end of the world, especially if you are strong as bull without back problems.

I see a lot of the members squat and do the lifts without the shoes...it's a bleeping greek tragedy. They could just wear some decent shoes but no, they gotta wear their trendy minimalist BS or go barefoot.

I can do it, and that's fine if you have the flexibility. It's tough without shoes but doable after a decent warmup though the ankles hate me for a short while.

Greg Everett also mentions one of the problems with going barefoot while squatting and lifting is collapsed arches. No thanks. Whether this is due to a lack of flexibility, not enough barefoot time; it's not worth the risk IMO, especially when under heavier squat loads.

I mean if you think about it, the human foot probably only had to deal with loads of maybe up to 250 pounds being squatted before lifting shoes and boots were used. Basically whatever you could get on your back somehow.

Coach Sommer said:

This proposition is not meant to apply to gymnastics only; but to all sports outside of Power Lifting and other similar sports where the only variable involved is maximal strength (no agility, sudden changes of direction, acceleration/deceleration etc). Depending on your individual sport, as what point is enough maximal strength enough? For example, Dan John once noted that when he built his back squat up to 400lbs, his measured distance in discuss throwing went down. When he reduced his back squat to 225lbs (approx. bodyweight), it went back up again.

The Chinese National Team has a basic requirement/team preference of double bodyweight in a full ROM back squat. The athletes involved are of course quite light (approx 55-60kg on average), but interestingly once again we are in the neighborhood of 225lbs.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Blairbob said:

Elevate your heels somehow by wearing a proper set of shoes or plates.

Slight pelvic tilt isn't the end of the world, especially if you are strong as bull without back problems.

I see a lot of the members squat and do the lifts without the shoes...it's a bleeping greek tragedy. They could just wear some decent shoes but no, they gotta wear their trendy minimalist BS or go barefoot.

I can do it, and that's fine if you have the flexibility. It's tough without shoes but doable after a decent warmup though the ankles hate me for a short while.

Greg Everett also mentions one of the problems with going barefoot while squatting and lifting is collapsed arches. No thanks. Whether this is due to a lack of flexibility, not enough barefoot time; it's not worth the risk IMO, especially when under heavier squat loads.

I mean if you think about it, the human foot probably only had to deal with loads of maybe up to 250 pounds being squatted before lifting shoes and boots were used. Basically whatever you could get on your back somehow.

I'm actually looking online for some shoes to buy right now for squats and general gym use. I go barefoot in my gym because I currently have nike frees and the sole is way too soft and seems to squish and shift underneath me. I used to use vibrams but they were messing up my toes I stubbed my toes a few times pretty hard and broke the toenails so now I hate them. I guess there are olympic lifting shoes with a raised heel but I also like to deadlift so I've heard wrestling shoes are best for this...

Edit: I just bought the Adidas Power Lift Trainer shoes. Once they come in I'll film my squats and see how they look.

Yeah, one of the trainers at the gym just bought those. Look alright and aren't that expensive.

For DL, barefoot is fine or a slipper since that is what DLers use.

I dunno if I agree about what DJ said regarding BS. Because it might have just been focusing on the BS took away from his throwing due to recovery.

I can tell you this...you better have a good front squat or you're gonna have a pathetic clean unless you just power clean stuff. Unlikely. Also unlikely to have a strong jerk with a weak squat. Sorry.

If you are a 69 like me...you best be FS about 200kg to be Elite. 100 would be a joke.

Here are some squats with the weightlifting shoes I just got. In the first video I was focusing on only going down to where my back stayed arched, and this ended up being slightly past parallel. In the second video I tried to go more ass to grass but not all the way, and as you can see, my hips start to dip again.

Sam, that first rep in video B is pretty boss. Yes, there's some work that needs to be done, but it's minor. I also suggest you start learning front squats now that you have your shoes.

You now have what you need, in my opinion, to succeed.

Regarding the Shankle video, the second rep was better than the first, almost no back shape change but I said this before and I'll say it again:

You can't make your thighs disappear. When you have thick thighs, and your abdomen hits them, and the thighs are contracted, your torso is going to conform to the shape of the thigh. This is ok, because you are supported by your leg-torso interaction directly. The important thing is to never REST in that shape or allow that shape to exaggerate. It should be minimized to only what is absolutely necessary, and fought against so that as you come up your regain shape, vertebra by vertebra, so that the unsupported spine is arched again at all times. 

Does that make sense?

Personally, I'd go with your first rep depth. There's not much advantage to going deeper than that, you're already covering your calves and there comes a point where you start putting distractive forces on the ACL and PCL. Some feel that this can be an issue, so you may not want to go down so far that you feel a strong interaction between hamstrings and calves inside the knee.

Alright thanks. Yeah, that makes sense. I need to constantly fight to stay in a tight arch and when I'm in the bottom position, not let anything rest and still fight for perfect position.

I've been doing some front squats and ill upload a video of them in a couple days.

 If your knees go more forward, you might be able to keep that lower back arch.

How are these front squats? 

http://youtu.be/IJKEjZPgUaA

First rep was virtually perfect. The 2nd and 3rd reps both show you moving your butt up before your shoulders start moving. You must not let yourself learn to front squat that way: Not only will you get hurt at some point, but you will be artificially limiting your ability to move up in weight due to bad form.

NEVER allow any increase in forward lean on the way up! Watch your hips on the first rep and second rep and you can see exactly what I mean!

You're doing great work, keep it up!

Joshua Naterman said:

First rep was virtually perfect. The 2nd and 3rd reps both show you moving your butt up before your shoulders start moving. You must not let yourself learn to front squat that way: Not only will you get hurt at some point, but you will be artificially limiting your ability to move up in weight due to bad form.

 

NEVER allow any increase in forward lean on the way up! Watch your hips on the first rep and second rep and you can see exactly what I mean!

 

You're doing great work, keep it up!

I can see exactly what you mean. The third rep especially looked pretty bad; I'll make sure not to do that again. Thanks!

No problem, Sam! Hope you're enjoying the break

 Yeah, during the 2nd and 3rd rep you can visibily see the elbows dropping and the form getting worse. It's not horrible but it's noticeable.

 Sets of 3's in the FrontSquat are hate. Probably worse than sets of 5's on the BackSquat (Olympic Style).

Good advice here. Your hips and ankles need a bit of work. I'd like to see your stance width also as that does have an impact on alignment.