FINALLY! A back lever.

Oddly enough, this transition has happened without one single attempt at my back lever since early September. Lots of core work though, including my new favorite clutch flags, lots of bridging, and stupidly, frustratingly slow progress toward a half-decent L-sit on PB (damned weak hip flexors).

No less, I got really excited about this today and just didn't have another community to share it with. You guys get it. It's a still from a video of a training session, where I managed to hold it in decent, though imperfect, form for 8 seconds.

Just another thumbs up to BtGB for having awesome progressions!

Dunte said:

Oddly enough, this transition has happened without one single attempt at my back lever since early September. Lots of core work though, including my new favorite clutch flags, lots of bridging, and stupidly, frustratingly slow progress toward a half-decent L-sit on PB (damned weak hip flexors).

No less, I got really excited about this today and just didn't have another community to share it with. You guys get it. It's a still from a video of a training session, where I managed to hold it in decent, though imperfect, form for 8 seconds.

Just another thumbs up to BtGB for having awesome progressions!

[attachment=0]rear lever progress 0812 to 1112.jpg[/attachment]

Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like your hand position is wrong. Palms should face ground or backwards instead of towards you.

Daniel Burnham said:

Hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like your hand position is wrong. Palms should face ground or backwards instead of towards you.

Huh, I never even considered hand position! I've been starting from an overhand grip, since most of my lever training before Sept was on a straight bar & I practiced after pull-ups. So I should start from a supinated grip or I should turn the rings in the final position?

I turn the rings as i go through but WARNING! you should feel it a lot more in your elbows with hands facing backwards so i'd suggest dropping it back a couple progressions to see how your elbows feel with it.

either way nice job! hard position to hold regardless of which way your hands face =)

ausswe said:

I turn the rings as i go through but WARNING! you should feel it a lot more in your elbows with hands facing backwards so i'd suggest dropping it back a couple progressions to see how your elbows feel with it.

either way nice job! hard position to hold regardless of which way your hands face =)

Thanks, I appreciate it. And I'll try out hands backward next time as well.

You should do both BL, pronated and supinated grip.

I think the pronated grip put more pressure on the anterior deltoid while the supinated grip put more pressure on the elbow and the bicep.

Pronated and supinated BL are great for planche and iron cross conditionning

Krel said:

You should do both BL, pronated and supinated grip.

I think the pronated grip put more pressure on the anterior deltoid while the supinated grip put more pressure on the elbow and the bicep.

Pronated and supinated BL are great for planche and iron cross conditionning

Nope. You should work the correct movement. Correct back lever indirectly helps advanced ring skills by preparing elbow. You won't get this if you reverse your grip. Also it is harder to maintain the correct body shape. And body shape is everything in gymnastics. Without it you will struggle to get anywhere. This is possibly the biggest thing that people overlook besides patience.

Daniel Burnham said:

Krel said:

You should do both BL, pronated and supinated grip.

I think the pronated grip put more pressure on the anterior deltoid while the supinated grip put more pressure on the elbow and the bicep.

Pronated and supinated BL are great for planche and iron cross conditionning

Nope. You should work the correct movement. Correct back lever indirectly helps advanced ring skills by preparing elbow. You won't get this if you reverse your grip. Also it is harder to maintain the correct body shape. And body shape is everything in gymnastics. Without it you will struggle to get anywhere. This is possibly the biggest thing that people overlook besides patience.

Daniel is correct. Back lever work should always be performed with a supinated grip.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

yes, as they mentioned efore, you should be able to perform it in a supinated and in a pronated grip.

the difference is that in a supinated is harder for the bicep and elbow joint...

i think that you should begin from a progression that you feel confort with, as you shouldn't feel pain or overtax to the joints...

By the way, the one arm supinated grip BL should put a great pressure in the elbow and biceps, so is training for the one arm BL useful for iron cross conditionning ? Is it a prerequisite ? Or is holding the supinated grip BL for something like 1 minute enough for the iron cross conditionning ?

Is it the same case for the FL ? Should we work the FL with a supinated grip ?

Krel said:

By the way, the one arm supinated grip BL should put a great pressure in the elbow and biceps, so is training for the one arm BL useful for iron cross conditionning ? Is it a prerequisite ? Or is holding the supinated grip BL for something like 1 minute enough for the iron cross conditionning ?

The most useful thing for training the iron cross is iron cross training. OABL is not a prerequisite for the iron cross. The prerequisites for the iron cross are covered in coach's elbow prep post. Again back lever will help prepare elbow but I don't think it will be enough to do the cross. Elbows will continue to get stronger by doing cross work assuming you don't start without meeting the prerequisites and don't do too much.

If you don't have a good back lever there isn't much reason to pontificate about these things anyway. Just stay with your training and take it one step at a time. Believe me there are many steps.

Is it the same case for the FL ? Should we work the FL with a supinated grip ?

Front lever is pronated grip.

One arm Back Lever? That sounds pretty damn beastly. Like a really weird hard version of a meathook.

If you are switching up from pronated to supinated BL, it's best to sort of start all over and build back up to it. Pain in the butt and hard on the ego, but it is what it is.

One of my lil guys boasted that before me, he could hit 40s-1m in the Back Lever but that prior coach allowed him to pronate. When competed, handgrip does not matter. Hit your 2s+ hold, get credit for the bonus in L4 (0.2).

Once we switched to supinated, I don't think he ever held much longer than 20 seconds. Maybe 25-30 on occasion. It did irk him a bit. He definitely had the core strength besides being on the shorter side and slender ( had GERD issues so bulking up and growing had been a problem in his past before me ).

Supinating the FL hold is just weird.

The longest I ever held a supinated BL was around 30s. I was trying to beat Erik's time at a NAIGC meet or practice or something. But I was able to do it for 1m in straddle or 1/2 lay. Not really that bad, really.

martinponce said:

yes, as they mentioned efore, you should be able to perform it in a supinated and in a pronated grip.

the difference is that in a supinated is harder for the bicep and elbow joint...

i think that you should begin from a progression that you feel confort with, as you shouldn't feel pain or overtax to the joints...

No.

You should never do BL work in a pronoted grip.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Blairbob said:

If you are switching up from pronated to supinated BL, it's best to sort of start all over and build back up to it. Pain in the butt and hard on the ego, but it is what it is.

I've finally gotten beyond ego in my bodyweight training (and in kettlebells...but the barbell defies my reasoning). The OAC has been a humbling process for me, but the patience is carrying over.

I'm sure I'll notice tomorrow at my next skill practice, but what about the supinated BL makes it so much more incredibly difficult to maintain for time? (Aside, why is there apparently no value in pronated BL work?)

Otherwise, thanks to each of you for all of the feedback, and for making a correction I never would have even noticed.

Coach, what about a more neutral grip? Awhile ago I noticed in BtGB that through the adv. tuck BL progression your athletes used a more neutral palms in grip.

I am quite surprised that the pronated grip BL is a wrong grip, i thought that both grip were useful.

I was actually doing 2x15 sec pronated grip full BL then 2x15 sec supinated grip full BL. But if the pronated grip is useless, I will probably switch for 4x15 sec supinated grip full BL.

In this video we can see a guy doing OABL, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKeSQ50U ... page#t=36s, but the grip is pronated.

Jasper Benincasa could also does it, but is the grip pronated or supinated ? I think he used pronated grip but I'm nore sure because it is not very clear on this picture :

About the FL, I feel more pressure in the elbow and biceps with a supinated grip, so can't we use both grip ? :?

Looks pronated to me. I think I can make out the fingers.

mirroredrain said:

Coach, what about a more neutral grip? Awhile ago I noticed in BtGB that through the adv. tuck BL progression your athletes used a more neutral palms in grip.

Good eye and nothing more than an oversight on my part. Those particular BL variations were so easy for them, that neither myself nor my athletes noticed the lack of supination.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

First off I'd like to say listen to coach. Whatever he says goes. If he says you should only train BL's with a supinated grip, that is the proper way. Also though, coach is probably referring 9 times out of 10 to how these moves are approached and should be trained by gymnasts. If you are not a gymnast, and don't necessarily have any long term goals for other gymnastic style exercises, then go ahead and train it with any grip you like! Just know that you are limiting your future strength options with a pronated grip

Learning a back lever with a pronated grip obviously still develops strength, but it is NOT the correct way to train it. So when you ask on a gymnastics training-specific website, people will tell you how these moves should be done in context to gymnastics, and these ways are the most reliable. So that you'll learn the proper way to build yourself for more advanced elements later. Learning a BL with pronated grip isn't "useless" for the non-gymnast, it's just not correct and will hinder you later on. So if all you want to learn is a BL and have no other more advanced rings strength goals, then train it pronated, neutral or supinated. That's my opinion anyway. Typically speaking though, these moves are also hazardous when not approached properly, so heeding the rules and guidelines and learning the proper way the first time around will be better and safer in the long term.

Ps: Jasper Benincasa (dude in the photo) was a very strong and fit man, but as far as I know, he was NOT a gymnast. And he didn't train Nakayama's or azarians or BL pull to Malteses AFAIK. If you look at his photos, while impressive, his technique and form was often not his best asset.

I want to be a gymnast so I will train like a gymnast

If the supinated grip BL is the best approach, I will only use it.

Thank you for your help guys, I will just do supinated grip BL and pronated grip FL now.

I always knew the pronated grip BL was useless for advanced GST, but I actually find it harder than with supinated grip. I have always trained it with the palms facing down and when doing it palms facing up, it just feels very weird and uncomfortable for me. I think the the pronated grip BL recruits more side delts than front delts.

I would also like to know if the supinated grip FL is useful and worth doing. It also feels a bit weird for me. I think it will use more rear delts than in the regular grip FL and also puts the lateral and medial heads of the triceps to work along with the long head instead of mainly just the long head in the regular FL.

B1214N said:

I always knew the pronated grip BL was useless for advanced GST, but I actually find it harder than with supinated grip ... I would also like to know if the supinated grip FL is useful ...

- The only purpose for training the BL is to prepare for more advanced ring strength elements. The BL performed with a pronated grip does not support this purpose.

- The supinated FL has no GST value and leads nowhere.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

OP- can you repost the original image?