Weighted Pullups vs Rope Climbing

Joshua Naterman said:

They are different. You change the leverage with the L sit versions and this does add difficulty, but will not completely replace weighted pull ups ... However, rope climbing is a reasonably good replacement.

Almost correct.

Weighted work is appropriate for intermediate level students only; thus rope climbs should completely replace weighted pullups in your training until you have mastered the fundamentals (FL, PL, SL, MN, RC, HB & SLS).

This is a common misconception on the GB forum which needs to be addressed.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

That's an interesting take.

Many people have found weighted work to be helpful in mastering those basics, so my first reaction to your statement is to say that I think relegating weighted pull ups to people who have mastered intermediate strength like FL and the others is a mistake.

Then again, I think: None of us in the adult GB group, that I am aware of, has actually built ourselves from the ground up with rope climb progressions. Without a comparison group I don't think I can make such a strong statement.

I am certainly a bit biased towards the weighted work as a fundamental strength-builder that should be happening alongside rope climbs since my personal experience has been that they prepared me well for all the pulling we do here. My biggest mistake was not having good rope climb progressions earlier on.

Right now I am just using rope climbs, arched pull ups, hollow pull ups, and our standard multiplane work and strength is coming back fast.

I definitely think that rope climbs are an enormously powerful elbow conditioner as are high rep reverse, regular,and hammer dumbbell curls.I use them for recovery sets on days I don't do rope climbs. I currently only do high volume rope climbs once per week as that's all my elbows can take. They need a week of recovery currently, so the rest of the week is one day of multiplane pulls with 1-2 sets of arched pull ups and then another day of hollow pull ups, arched pull ups, and FL holds. Sometimes a few FL rows as well.

I don't consider my pull up form to feel good enough to start adding weight at the moment, so I can't say yet what weighted pull ups will add to the program, but I do think that when the time is right I will simply transition into weighted pull ups a few lbs at a time on the days I currently do pull up variations.

I know that, according to that list, I am technically more intermediate than beginner in the pulls. Do you think my plan is a mistake? It seems to me that when someone has mastered L-sit variations in their pull ups that they need to start adding weight a few lbs at a time on those and their regular pull up variations. I don't think this should be done in lieu of rope climbs, but alongside.

What are your thoughts and concerns with this approach?

Edit: One more question: Does mastery constitute a full lay in the listed basic skills or a transition from tuck to flat tuck, or something else?

Joshua Naterman said:

I know that, according to that list, I am technically more intermediate than beginner in the pulls. Do you think my plan is a mistake?

- Yes, this is a mistake and one of the reasons why you constantly move from injury to injury. The proper progression should be rows to pull-ups to MPPu to rope climbs.

- Until you have completely and thoroughly mastered rope climbs, your overall GST pulling strength will remain at the beginner level.

- FL is a beginner level GST strength element, not intermediate. Sorry. :cry:

- Perhaps it will help everyone to equate the 8 Levels of the GB Strength Chart to a martial arts ranking system with the 8th level being the equivalent of a 1st degree black belt. For those who have never been seriously involved with the martial arts, while the first degree black belt is an excellent accomplishment; in reality it simply means that the basics of that particular system have been mastered and that work on more advanced elements may now reasonably begin.

Joshua Naterman said:

Many people have found weighted work to be helpful in mastering those basics, so my first reaction to your statement is to say that I think relegating weighted pull ups to people who have mastered intermediate strength like FL and the others is a mistake.

- You are of course entitled to your opinion; it is interesting to note however that none of the proponents of these methods are as strong or capable as the athletes of instructors who do not follow such protocols.

I am going to be rather direct here: when these other unproven protocols manage to create athletes as strong and capable as my own, as well as those developed by the other US Jr National Team coaches (none of whom focus on weighted work with "beginner" level students e.g. those who have not yet mastered the fundamentals of FL, HB, RC etc), then these other "new" protocols will receive the attention they deserve.

Until that time, I recommend simply following the proven GB program as laid out and for everyone to quit re-inventing the wheel every other month. Only after the fundamentals are mastered can we then profitably discuss more advanced training options.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Interesting. A lot to digest

I think that to a large degree you are absolutely right. I do like how I am feeling now that I am focusing on the rope climbs, and I have no plans to deviate from them. I can definitely tell that my elbows have a long way to go before I have any business doing anything beyond rope climbs and planche leans. It's too bad that I wasn't doing the rope stuff earlier...

I will say that I think that the improper activation in my right scapular have been a major part of my injury cycle. No matter what rehab I did, that never got fixed. Now that it is being addressed I am beginning to feel like an athlete again. You are right though, I did skip through things. This time around I am going through the mastery templates

Thank you for taking the time and being direct!

I quickly wanted to ask what the "strength chart" Coach mentioned was? I remember reading something about it (I think it was when the changes to what needed to be mastered first came about), but I can't find anything on it.

Joshua Naterman said:

... It's too bad that I wasn't doing the rope stuff earlier...

Not a problem, Josh. Shying away from being direct as never been an issue of mine.

Initially I grossly overestimated the average strength levels of the beginning GST adult student. Perhaps it helps to put into context that my elite athletes live on a steady diet of 9-15 daily rope climbs and from our perspective the rope climbs were not a big deal.

This problem with beginners working weighted pullups is my error as well. Even though I stated that I disagreed on numerous occasions, I allowed the discussions regarding weighted pullups to go on in the GB forum for far too long. In the future, I would like everyone on the forum to concentrate on getting these basics mastered, so that we can move on to more advanced training.

Erik Sjolin said:

I quickly wanted to ask what the "strength chart" Coach mentioned was? I remember reading something about it (I think it was when the changes to what needed to be mastered first came about), but I can't find anything on it.

The GB Strength Chart is a tool that I have used in the last several seminars that organizes and quantifies all of the fundamental GST exercises and associated mobility in 8 different levels. In the very near future when the new forum goes active it will be available in the graduate studies section.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Shying away from being direct as never been an issue of mine.

Definitely one of your best qualities in my opinion! Right up there with being an incredibly stand-up guy.

Gotcha!

Well, from now until May I will just be going through the mastery templates.

I'm feeling healthy enough to do that now

Just going to do the basics and see where that takes me. It's been going well for the past 2 months (not even that long for some of this stuff)!

Zach Armijo said:

Joshua Naterman said:

Just going to do the basics and see where that takes me. It's been going well for the past 2 months (not even that long for some of this stuff)!

From the Seminar in Sept '11, Pat Sardilli did nothing but start over with all PE1s. By the time May '12 seminar came around, He got his final Hollow Hold times. But when we were going through the different FL elements, his strength was a massive improvement just from his PE1 holds. When performing Kip Extensions, he managed to get 4 or 5 reps (can't remember) this time around where as the seminar pre PE1 work, he was unable to get any reps at all. Pretty damn good showcase in strength seeing a PE1 mastery shine all the way through to upper end prep elements.

No kidding! It will be interesting to see how I do. I'm excited Hell, it just feels good to train again. It is hard to remember that my body is pretty deconditioned in all the joints, because I am still pretty strong.

I actually noticed how even basic PB swings and PB walks are more difficult than they used to be... a bit humbling, I have to say.