elbow hyperextension from ring work

Does anyone else get elbow hyperextension from ring work, specifically crosses and maltese and know how to fix it?

i'll get a pic up soon, they bend pretty far backwards.

I'm pretty sure its the way i grip, i guess you could call it a reverse false grip, my wrists bend upward, causing my forearm extensors to tense which helps me hold it somehow.

I find undergrip better than over or normal grip

Is there a way to prevent hyperextension without changing my grip? some sort of elbow strengthening exercises?

the reason i want to keep my grip is because false grip IMO is cheating

and normal grip doesn't develop the same freaky forearm extensor muscle (completely vain reason but i'd rather not change my grip)

since starting ring training my left elbow has become hyperextended. and if you look at most (if not all) elite gymnasts on rings they have hyperextended elbows. it might just be a normal thing resulting from heavy ring training. im not sure though....

Ring Strength Hyperextension

The hyperextension of the elbows when training advanced ring strength elements generally occurs due to one of two primary causes:

1) A failure to first establish a solid foundation of basic strength. This is really key; as basic strength builds a solid physical structure from which you may progress onward into more advanced Gymnastic Strength Training™ components. Many people, not just those with hyper extended elbows, often make the mistake of prematurely focusing on advanced straight arm ring strength elements (crosses, malteses etc.) when they have not yet built an impressive degree of bent-arm strength or press handstand strength. Often the discomfort from prematurely training advanced ring strength elements will naturally begin to alleviate itself as the athlete develops more biceps muscle mass to help protect the elbow from over-extending itself and more shoulder mass to stabilize the shoulder girdle.

As an example, I have an intermediate level athlete who, for that level, is one of the best at performing my developmental maltese exercises (we'll go over them later :wink:). Now he also has one of the best 'cirques' on the team. A cirque is a special kind of rope climb where first the athlete climbs to the top of the rope with arms only and then during the descent completely releases one hand, and keeps it extended out to the side, while lowering as slowly as possible with the other arm (in this athlete's case the negative one-arm chin takes approximately 5 seconds). When that arm is straight, the athlete switches hands and continues the descent in the same manner with the other arm. Essentially a cirque is an arms-only rope climb followed by a series of negative one-arm chins.

As an interesting aside, I have two other more advanced athletes who are even better at cirques, with negative chin cycling times of 8-10 seconds per arm. And yes, their malteses are substantially farther along than the other outstanding cirque performer.

Please note that this is not an invitation for you to enthusiastically begin training cirques without the proper physical preparation. This is a very demanding element and exposure to it prematurely WILL give you a signficant case of elbow tendonitis, the very thing that we are trying to avoid. Approaching training with enthusiasm is excellent; however for enthusiasm to be effective in the long-term, it must be wed to diligence and self-restraint. Always be careful to gradually work your way through the various progressions which I will provide to you.

2) A failure to proceed through the proper ring strength progressions, coupled with the appropriate safeguards. As with all else in the Gymnastic Bodies program, advanced ring strength is something that is gradually and progressively developed. The forthcoming All Muscle, No Iron is a complete guide to developing both general and advanced ring strength elements.

I constantly hear it asserted that tendonitis of the elbows is unavoidable when training advanced ring strength elements. Nonsense. It is usually due to a failure to lay a proper foundation and then, compounding that mistake, by failing to use proper ring strength progressions. As you can see, there is a reason that Building the Gymnastic Body, which deals with developing basic strength, is the first Gymnastic Bodies volume that I am releasing. We will need to explore and establish a solid basic strength foundation prior to moving onward, and including other more demanding gymnastics strength components.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks,

I'm pretty strong with bent arm work, i do cirques, i just didn't know they had a name, so i guess i belong to the second category

Thank you Ts00nami and Coach Sommer. This small thread has answered a problem of mine. It seems every time I rope/pole climb, try for a OAP or iron cross, or arm wrestle I almost always end up with screaming mad tendonitis for a couple of days and am unable to return to pulling movements for a solid 4-7 days after.

I have always wondered why this is. I previously thought it was just bad genetics. But it seems thats probably not the case (although it could be a factor). More likely, I have yet to build the proper strength and possibly need more muscle mass. I'm 5'11" 158lbs and can manage 11 pullups and 15 dips (bw only), but can squeak out a muscle-up on rings.

Looks like I've been rushing into the higher level strength stuff and need to build more of a foundation w/ weighted dips and pullups first before I try a OAP or rope climb. As for arm wrestling I think it's just the max effort strain on my tendons that I'm not used to...but I now avoid it like the plague for fear of tendonitis!

Thanks for answering an unsolved problem of mine

Coach Sommer said:

Ring Strength Hyperextension

Many people, not just those with hyper extended elbows, often make the mistake of prematurely focusing on advanced straight arm ring strength elements (crosses, malteses etc.) when they have not yet built an impressive degree of bent-arm strength or press handstand strength.

How much bent-arm strength do you think is enough Coach? ditto for press handstand strength?

Coach Sommer said:

Please note that this is not an invitation for you to enthusiastically begin training cirques without the proper physical preparation. This is a very demanding element and exposure to it prematurely WILL give you a signficant case of elbow tendonitis, the very thing that we are trying to avoid. Approaching training with enthusiasm is excellent; however for enthusiasm to be effective in the long-term, it must be wed to diligence and self-restraint. Always be careful to gradually work your way through the various progressions which I will provide to you.

What preparation is needed to begin training cirques?

bump

anybody?

Double digit pullup and dips bar minimum.

Actually training weighted pullups and dips should be a lot more useful before training the cirques.

Obviously, you'll need to be able to get up a rope, but I would reccomend not training them until you can climb without your legs, preferably using long instead of short steps with each hand.

I would think how much bent arm strength is necessary depends upon the element being trained.

I'm not sure a lot of bent arm strength needs to be trained before tackling straight arm press handstands ( from a straddle stand on floor ). Handstand to headstand push up is probably more than enough considering many gymnasts who can do these cannot do those even against a wall or with piked hips on a height. A good solid ROM pushup is probably more than enough.

Blairbob said:

Double digit pullup and dips bar minimum.

Actually training weighted pullups and dips should be a lot more useful before training the cirques.

Obviously, you'll need to be able to get up a rope, but I would reccomend not training them until you can climb without your legs, preferably using long instead of short steps with each hand.

I would think how much bent arm strength is necessary depends upon the element being trained.

I'm not sure a lot of bent arm strength needs to be trained before tackling straight arm press handstands ( from a straddle stand on floor ). Handstand to headstand push up is probably more than enough considering many gymnasts who can do these cannot do those even against a wall or with piked hips on a height. A good solid ROM pushup is probably more than enough.

Thanks for your response Blairbob

The last time I tried maxing dips I got 40+ easy. Pullups, not sure haven't maxed reps in awhile, maybe 20.

I'm not getting hyperextension but I'm starting to get some pain in my forearm close to the elbow joint when I do some straight arm "pushing" work on the rings.

I feel it most when I rotate my hand from palm facing up to palm down with my wrist cocked upwards. And like I said it's only happening on my pushing/pressing strength days when i do my maltese-type work (don't really know the name for the exercise). Usually the next day it is gone.

What I do is, lean forward a little bit holding the rings with straight arms locked and the bring my hands and arms upwards from my waist to about shoulder height while keeping my arms locked. I don't do it with a very steep angle. But still it seems like lately it is too much. It subsides the next day, but I don't want to push it, I want to listen to my body like they say.

What do you recommend? Should I just stop this movement all together? stop all straight arm ring work as well?

I read earlier in the the thread that Coach likes to have his athletes have a certain amount of bent arm strength before proceeding to straight arm work...

Besides dips and pullups, what other amounts of bent arm strength should I have before proceeding straight arm ring work?

Do you recommend I switch to rope climbing and cirque training before I do ANY stright arm biceps work on rings?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I wait for my book and dvds.....Thanks again!

Could be simply you are not adapted to straight arm work enough to go to the advanced progressions.

While you are strong, it's too much too soon. Physically you can do things with your strength I can't per say but your joints haven't built up to it, maybe. Look back to mastering basic straight arm skills before going into the more advanced ones.

Blairbob said:

Could be simply you are not adapted to straight arm work enough to go to the advanced progressions.

While you are strong, it's too much too soon. Physically you can do things with your strength I can't per say but your joints haven't built up to it, maybe. Look back to mastering basic straight arm skills before going into the more advanced ones.

Okay what would those "basic" straight arm skills be?

I'm at a crossroads, I feel like I don't know what to do, or what direction to go and it's kind of frustrating...

I don't want to push it and aggravte it into a full blown injury then I won't be able to train. But at the same time, I don't know exactly what I should be training in order to work my way up to being able to do straight arm work.

Like I said earlier, do you think I should nix all straight arm bicep work and start doing rope climb work?

Support, L sit, invert hang, german hang, back lever.

How long have you been working on rings again?

That exercise sounds a like a pushup to maltese position ( cross fly ).

I would advise you to follow Blairbobs advice of doing weighted push ups and pull ups, and as Coach Sommer stated more than once, pain and unjury are all too often results of doing too much too soon,

as for the weighted chins and push ups that's what I'm doing and it's progressing along very nicely, and I have the same problem with hyperextension.

Cheers.

That's fine and you are right but I can do weighted pushups and pullups all day. The pushups on rings are extremely easy.... I reallyt don't even do those anymore because they are too easy.

So basically, I'm trying to get an idea of when to move on and what the progressions are.

Blairbob said:

Support, L sit, invert hang, german hang, back lever.

How long have you been working on rings again?

That exercise sounds a like a pushup to maltese position ( cross fly ).

Yea I was doing cross flyes too, but with my feet on the floor. I've been on the rings for about 3 months consistently, but before that I've trained for years and years and probably about the last year bodyweight only. I train 6 days a week 3 pulling (back) and 3 pushing (front)

I took a week off after talking to Coach, and I'm stopping all straight arm work whatsoever until I get stronger I guess.

Also I think I will buy a rope like we talked about earlier and incorporate that into my daily practices.

The only straight arm stuff I will do is back and front levers and working up to press handstands as per Coach's recommendations.

You can try archer puspusp, where you do one arm straight (as in cross flyes) and one arm bent, so you can control a bit the amount of work of the straight arm.

serotonin said:

You can try archer puspusp, where you do one arm straight (as in cross flyes) and one arm bent, so you can control a bit the amount of work of the straight arm.

Yea I was doing those too. They were pretty easy for me also and I felt I wasn't getting anytthing out of them anymore. I don't think they are what caused the problem. I was doing sets of 10 (5 reps each arm)

Honestly, I think I should just nix all straight arm work until I get a good indication from Coach Sommer as to specifically when an athlete should proceed with straight arm stuff.

I plan on training like this for the rest of my life and I don't want to rush things and get injured.

There are plenty of challenging things I haven't done yet with bent arms like rope climbs, cirques, one arm chins and pullups, planches-planche pushups, HSPUs, etc. that I can work on.

I will just focus on all of that for now. Of course I will still work on my rings doing my dips, bulgarian dips, pullups, tuck lever pullups, front/back lever work, etc.

Bent arms:swing dips->like on paralel bars (backward, forward, to handstand,....)