Overthinking or underworking?

Something I've noticed from the moderators and other knowledgeable users lately is the use of the phrase "you're overthinking it." I was curious about just how much is "overthinking" and when it's best to just ignore all the little doubts and just do the work.

Since my first day of stumbling onto this site, I've been doing my best to drill in proper form and technique, and it's been working well so far, but other things like planche and handstand pushups have not progressed in the slightest in the 3 to 6 years I've been working on them (respectively). Naturally, my first thought was to fix my form and go back to the start to build foundation strength, but it hasn't work. Now the whole idea of "overthinking it" has me confused. Should I just ignore the popped up scapula despite shoulder protraction in the planche, and the inability to keep the upper back straight in the handstand pushup and simply build up the strength?

I realize I'm overthinking overthinking, but it's something that's been bugging me.

Happy Thanksgiving! Sorry you're not feeling so happy though.

I suppose it is possible to think too much about positioning, if it is preventing

you from practicing. However, I don't think practicing without the best form

is a waste either. It may not be ideal and may lead to injuries but if it feels

good doing it, I wouldn't worry that much.

Going back to one of your earlier posts, after six months of training you wrote viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4084&p=31063#p31063

you had low numbers in FBE such as push-ups, pull-ups and dips. That was around 3 years ago.

What are your current numbers in the same exercises? Do you have any numbers for weighted variations?

What is your current weight? Before it was around 98kg - 215 lbs. At 202cm or 6'6 is going to make planche

quite challenging. Perhaps long arms also create disadvantageous leverage for HSPU. How is your freehand handstand?

The straight back thing can be a shoulder and thoraic spine flexiblity issue.

Have you ever taken a full week off from training in the past few years? Initially you had a tendency

to do too much and Coach called you out on it. Moderate overtraining can correlate with lack of progress too.

Happy Thanksgiving, FiS! Not to worry, it's more along the lines of frustration than unhappiness, though.

Let's see here...after my move I suffered a pretty substantial loss in strength, but some numbers are;

PU- 3 x 10 PMPU (been trying to get the plus for a while now. Not sure of my form, but I'm certain my butt is too high)

Pulls - 4 x 3 @ 110lbs, or front lever pulls/yewkis. OAC is off and on (off right now)

dips - 3 x 8 bulgarian ring dips, but I play around with other variations as well (still need to master Russians)

FSPs - I can do full Ls and Straddle Ls (though lately those have been getting lower and stiffer), full BL, lost my full FL so I'm building it back up, manna is coming along but I'm really watching my elbows, and PL leans look...bad. Oh, and straddle SL for about six seconds each side.

I think I'm about 185lbs right now. About the same it's been since grade 10. I don't want to put body style as the cause of my difficulty, since I've been doing alright with other things (presses included, but those have somewhat diminished as well). My freehand handstand is solid, but pretty closed. I've started rolling out my upper back and a few other spots with a foam roller after my workouts, and it's yielded the best results for flexibility. I should probably be doing it before, though, so I have that flexibility during the workouts.

I'm not sure that it's the long limbs that are causing my problems in the HSPU. I've had strong ones before, but in strict form, I've never performed one correctly. Could be that I learned in wrong and it got really deeply ingrained in muscle memory, could be I could just use a workout partner or a coach, or even that I need to spend time working specific muscles with weights, but that's the main issue again; am I overthinking it and just work it badly?

Well, I've never taken a full week off. This weekend was the longest I've gone without training (intentionally) at three days (but I was still playing with handstands and whatnot), and I hate doing that. Usually it's a six week schedule with anywhere from 1 to 2 hours solid work at a time. Of course, that on top of the rowing practices for school may make for some overtraining in the future...I took the time off now because my shoulders were a little sore from (what I assume was) my HS Wall Runs, so we'll see how things feel tomorrow.

It's the overthinking thing...I'm too good at it.

I think it is a scapular activation issue.

Read this and tell me what you think:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9946&p=88549#p88527

... Let's see here...after my move I suffered a pretty substantial loss in strength, but some numbers are;

PU- 3 x 10 PMPU (been trying to get the plus for a while now. Not sure of my form, but I'm certain my butt is too high)

Pulls - 4 x 3 @ 110lbs, or front lever pulls/yewkis. OAC is off and on (off right now)

dips - 3 x 8 bulgarian ring dips, but I play around with other variations as well (still need to master Russians)

FSPs - I can do full Ls and Straddle Ls (though lately those have been getting lower and stiffer), full BL, lost my full FL so I'm building it back up, manna is coming along but I'm really watching my elbows, and PL leans look...bad. Oh, and straddle SL for about six seconds each side ...

Erik,

At your level of strength, when I look at your exercise selections I have to ask myself ... why?

My recommendations:

- Too much weighted pull-up work. Maintain it with once a week and then focus on higher rep pulling work. You need to climb the rope ... alot.

- Your degree of pressing strength is completely out of sync with your pulling strength. You can do pullups with Bdy+110lbs and yet cannot do Russian Dips?!?

- Focus on HSPU and hollow back presses.

- It also sounds as though stretching needs to be re-prioritized.

As a final thought, when was the last time you took a break from training?

- Prior to implementing the above recommendations it may be a very good idea to take a week of active rest to allow your body to recover and recharge prior to beginning another training cycle.

- Once you do begin the new training cycle, make every fourth week a half volume week.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I kinda figured I was doing things wrong.

For higher reps, should I aim for about 10? 20? More? I'll have to find a climbing rope somewhere, because that is absolutely something I need to work on.

Well, I can do Russian dips, but they're not something I consider I've mastered...perhaps my wording was bad there.

HSPU and hollowback by using the progressions learned at the seminar? Also, for HSPU should I just always be practicing it to try and ingrain the correct motion, or only on the training days?

Stretching does need to be a focus, and it is.

I have actually not taken a break from training (intentionally) since I joined the forum. The things that I do have tend to disappear very quickly if I take too many days off.

I'll start doing the half volume weeks starting next cycle.

Thanks a lot for the tips!

You're still over thinking. I'm going to make one statement and this goes for everyone.

Recovery is King. Training is to break you down, force adaptation. Recovery is the time for adaptation. Plan to recover. If you're losing skills then it is just improper recovery or training. Recovery is not about doing nothing, it is about helping your body rest and recover. I'm sorry if I am coming across blunt, just a bit of a rant I am on right now, dealing with a couple stubborn people.

No worries. Blunt was kind of the answer I was shooting for.

Erik Sjolin said:

I have actually not taken a break from training (intentionally) since I joined the forum. The things that I do have tend to disappear very quickly if I take too many days off.

Thanks a lot for the tips!

This is actually NOT true, you have to keep a perspective, unfortunately I have been skipping MONTHS of training lately, and obviously that will lower your capabilities(not as fast as you´ll think). But one week of half volume will actually INCREASE your strength at the beginning of the next one, you´ll feel the exercises lighter and easier than two weeks before. You are letting your body to recover and rebound above the previous capabilities.

One thing that I have noted when I missed some weeks of training is that the first thing you lose is resistance and strength resistance capabilities, max strength is more forgiving. In a couple of weeks of training again you should recover all your resistance back, no problem. Obviously if you want to improve missing training days is not the way to go. But you need to recover.

Also if you don´t take active recovery weeks you are risking injury, maybe not now that you are young, but once you reach 30 or so, you´ll see how your body needs more time to heal, and overreaching will cause an injury more easily.

By the way I could be wrong, if there is not good advice here moderators feel free to erase the message! :wink:

Coach Sommer said:

As a final thought, when was the last time you took a break from training?

Hmmm I´cant remeber... Feeling guilty!

Nic Branson said:

You're still over thinking. I'm going to make one statement and this goes for everyone.

Recovery is King. Training is to break you down, force adaptation. Recovery is the time for adaptation. Plan to recover. If you're losing skills then it is just improper recovery or training. Recovery is not about doing nothing, it is about helping your body rest and recover. I'm sorry if I am coming across blunt, just a bit of a rant I am on right now, dealing with a couple stubborn people.

+1

I have found that my post workout nutrition and nutrition between workouts is more important in terms of my progress than my actual workout.

That doesn't mean I don't need to have a decent workout plan, but seriously: It's time to think about what you are doing during your workout:

You are sending orders to your muscle factories. That's not an analogy, that's what's actually happening. The combination of metabolites, extracellular saltitory charge, and mechanical stress all send signals to your muscle nuclei that say "MAKE MORE PROTEINS"

Analogy time: Imagine you own a factory. You make cars.

One day an order comes in and to fulfill it you need to double production for the next 24 hours! How do you do this? Well, there are two basic things that can happen:

Base scenario: You call your factory and have the following conversation:

You: "Yo foreman, listen up: I need the guys to make twice as many cars for the next 24 hours."

Foreman: "Yea, well we don't have enough raw materials for that."

You: "Problem solved, I just sent in all the raw material you need"

Foreman: "Right, that's great. One more thing: I just passed the word and the workers say that unless they get paid double to do twice the work you can go F yourself and they will keep working at the regular pace"

Option 1:

You: "Whatever man, I sent the parts and you guys work for me and you better make it happen!"

Foreman: " *rolls eyes* Yea, no problem. While you're at it, I'd like a pony. And a broom to fly on." *Phone hangs up*

Option 2:

You: "Crap. Well, it's totally worth it. Tell the guys you all get double time, and perhaps a bonus on top of that if things go really well!"

Foreman: "Hell yea, we got your back boss!" *Shouting in the background, workers cheer, sounds of machines picking up speed*

Option 3:

This is when you pay double but don't send any extra raw materials, and research shows that this produces the exact same results as raw materials but no extra money: You get some elevated protein synthesis but nowhere near what you should. In both cases, all you really did was give your body calories.

Now, I don't I need to point out that Option 2 is the only way to fill this order. At least in America, and your body is like America: it's all about the money. You don't pay, you don't get jack.

Money = food (calories)

Raw materials = protein

It's that simple: Give your factories food, and give them raw materials, and let them go crazy for you! The trick is the amount of food: it has to cover what you burn in your workouts, and fast.

Think of it like this: You just had your workers running around at 6 times their normal work pace for a while. They haven't been paid for all that work yet, it's just an IOU... so when a big order comes in and they are already looking at their bank accounts and thinking "This cheap ass mofo hasn't even paid me for that other crap I just did..." well, you already know what comes next! "I'm not working my back off for him again until he pays me for what I just did!!! AND pays me double for this next crazy order!"

I feel like thinking of this in economic terms makes it easier to understand.

This is 100% original material.

Copyright Joshua Naterman 2012

Erik,

Focus on the weak links. That is obviously your pressing work. I don't know what kind of structural balance and prehab work you are doing, but you need to focus on your external rotators and scapular retractors and depressors.

Another form of deloading is to cut volume(40-60%) every 3-5 sessions of the same kind. I prefer this method over deloading 1 week of every 4. It's more convenient for scheduling(for me), easier to deal with mentally, and still allows the body to recover. It's something you may want to consider.

Also, focus on variety of movement as a stimulus. Only doing weighted pull ups, yewkis, and FL pulls will stall you out. Add in variety with the various rope climbs, rows, and pull up variations. Same with pressing. If a particular progression isn't yielding progress, move to a different movement.

Here's the thing, raja, what I've put here isn't even close to what I actually do. I understand that my weak link is my pressing, and that's what I'm going to be shifting my focus to. Rope climbs are a tough one for me to do simply because there are no places around that will let me use their climbing ropes (safety this and safety that. :roll: ).

The topic has gotten away from what I originally intended the thread for, which was should I just work the exercise (in a smart, proper way with adequate rest in between), or constantly be thinking and analyzing my form right from the beginning (which is why I haven't progressed in the HSPUs at all)?

Right now, if there isn't anything obviously wrong then you need to be working your exercises.

When you consider your form, only try and fix one issue at a time. Fixing everything will make you crazy and more often then not stall your progress.

Stick to your progressions, analyze minimally for one correction at a time.

Even Coach Sommer with his very high standards has stated that form won't be perfect at first. Artists of the highest level are constantly working on form, even of the most basic elements.

It's always a work in progress. Be happy with the small victories.

Erik said:

... Rope climbs are a tough one for me to do simply because there are no places around that will let me use their climbing ropes (safety this and safety that ...

My recommendation is to buy an 8' long rope and then climb wherever and whenver you want.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Erik said:

... Rope climbs are a tough one for me to do simply because there are no places around that will let me use their climbing ropes (safety this and safety that ...

My recommendation is to buy an 8' long rope and then climb wherever and whenver you want.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Definitely the way to go in my opinion. I hang mine off of rings or a high bar or whatever is around, just like you say. It makes a huge difference to be able to do the rope climb progressions on a regular basis! I don't want to put anything like that on video, but perhaps I'll show the rope setup and maybe even teach a simple "at your own risk" method for making a small eye that is more than capable of handling all rope climb progressions.

Coach Sommer said:

- Once you do begin the new training cycle, make every fourth week a half volume week.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Is this a general recommendation?

The 4 week deload is generally recommended for everyone, yes.

Mats Trane said:

Is this a general recommendation?

Yes.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Thanks! Being around here for so long I should have known! I´ll start with that right away!

Alright, I managed to get my gym to let me bring in a portable climbing rope to set up on one of the taller squat cages (turns out one of the trainers there has been lobbying to get a full scale rope in there for a while, but has run into the usual problems).

Just gotta build the thing, now.