Style of KB swinging. Upright vs very Hip-Hingy...

Hi all. Couldn't figure out a proper place to put this. I thought about posting it on the CrossFit board but most of the people there probably swing CrossFit style, upright and overhead. I know a few have done the RKC, but few and far between who post.

I've pretty much gotten away from going overhead though I've seen a new take on it where people bend their arms so it's also much like an Olympic Snatch/Clean High pull (not really the dreaded SumoDeadliftHighPull). It's kind of interesting I'll say but not sure if it's better. It probably reduces the load of force/power because of bending the arms vs keeping them straight.

Anyways, as I was reading this article it had me thinking about the Hip-Hinge. I'm not too familiar with the RKC way of swinging or DanJohn's off the top of my head. I pick up a bell and swing it and call it good.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/are_heavy_kettlebell_swings_better_than_deadlifts

Should I look into more of the big Hip-Hinge method of swinging or upright version? No idea here.

To note, my interest in KB pretty much wanes after swings, cleans, presses/jerks, and snatches besides TGU and bent presses. I don't give a damn about passing them over my head, spinning around while swinging or juggling them.

I sure as heck don't want to do a double grip KB clean. Had to do that during a workout in July and thought it was one of the dumbest moves I've ever done. Made medball/barbell plate cleans seem tolerable...well not really.

I guess KB goblet squats are alright but I prefer hex DB for these or to just front squat with a KB in each hand.

Thanks. I will probably be asking the people at the gym I train at seeing as they coach and have done so for years.

Hip-hinge with shoulder(s) pulled down and back. The movement is all hip, use those glutes. You're projecting the bell. If you were to let it go (please don't, especially in doors) it should go forward not up. The bottom position should be fairly deep, about deadlift height. It will make the move slightly slower but with a much more powerful reversal. There is no reason to go past chest height on the up swing. Lats should be tight to reverse the bell forcefully. That is key to get the explosive benefits. Going over chest height not only runs the risk of compromising shoulder and lower back safety but you can no longer maintain the velocity to get the most benefit.

Double grip KB cleans...

Not enough face palm for that. Idiotic and dangerous. Double KB clean is a different story. Great move for contact sport athletes that one.

If you want you can send me a video of your swing anytime.

Kind of a crude picture but that's me at the bottom of a swing with my facial hair in July. Probably similar to the angle of lean you were talking about.

That is exactly what it looks like, a dynamic good morning.

Thing is, FWIK, the style of swinging I do and you describe Cole, looks a lot more like an Olympic 2nd pull than the dynamic good morning style. Not even Jon North gets that horizontal (though he gets to about 30 degrees above).

So what angle are we talking about here, Nic?

Horizontal like the girl in that T-nation article which means 90 degrees to the legs?

Yes, the double grip KB clean looked very much like a medball clean with a KB. I found it atrocious so I opted for a double KB clean.

Her form looks pretty damn good. She could push the hips back a bit more on the bottom but that's being nit-picky. All of the force is being absorbed by her hips and legs, you should never feel anything in the lower back.

Try to get within an inch or two of that.

Ahh, so you are a proponent of that hip-hingyness. Gotcha.

Gonna try it out in my warmup today in about an hour. Mainly need to figure out the bell crashing thingy in KB snatches.

Would you use that same hip-hingy swing for a KB snatch?

Since you talked about that creating forward momentum whereas in a snatch, I'd imagine you want to create more vertical momentum. Of course you can try to channel that horizontal momentum to forward momentum but with the hingy swing you end up creating A LOT of horizontal momentum.

I've seen both kinds of swings into the KB snatch. Steve Cotter doing one very hip hingy besides a score of other people doing them with the more diagonal angle swing into it.

Always a hip hinge just to what degree. For the snatch you still hinge but you allow the elbow to bend to redirect the bell vertically. If your're smashing your forearm with the bell you are not bending your elbow with the right timing. Strong hinge pop the hips through and as the bell passes your legs pull the shoulder back hard and allow the elbow to bend as the bell goes over the hand straighten it and punch it through to catch the bell on your forearm. Your bicep should be by your ear when you catch it.

Thanks.

Having been used to the more vertical, diagonal angled body KB swing, I found the very horizontal hip hinge around 90 degrees just really odd.

Watching a few videos finally fixed the bell slamming into forearm BS. I've been seeing the owner/coach do the same drill I saw on youtube that he does but just haven't gotten around to trying it myself.

Mostly agree with what Nic said and relate to what you say, though in an opposite way!

The CF over the head motion seems really strange to me, because of the way I was taught initially.

I was taught by a Systema (Russian MA) practitioner and also took class by an Agatsu certified teacher.

And both were definitely having more hip and knee flexion and extension and were even less upright, compared to the T-nation video. Perhaps that makes it more quads though primarily glutes and hips though. Also I was taught to

start the KB behind my heel and then take it to about head height.

An upright swing does involve the arms and shoulders more and might have more of an effect there, if that

is what you are looking for. A "hippy" swing is primarily core and lower body and the

arms are pretty passive throughout the motion, except for controlling the

KB. Swings in general can't replace strength training. They can certainly becomes a cardio and

muscle endurance workout because of the major muscle groups involved though.

When you starting doing swings with doubles and the weight is over 100lbs you can see great strength increases. Especially in explosiveness. As for the height, you cannot keep your shoulders safely packed in once the bells gets to about shoulder height for most people.

This is not GS style where it is about endurance. That style very specialized.

Right, that's what I meant by head height. Arms parallel to the floor. I don't like the feeling of going above that at all either.

In any event, I wasn't referring to GS. Really the whole 30 minute workout of mixed KB exercises became a sweat fest.

Very few people could complete it. Not only swings though.

So it wasn't only the swings that made it endurance related but they were part of it.

GS endurance swings I haven't done myself though might consider doing. Nowadays I just do KB

when it's the last best option for whatever reason.

Edit:

Nic do you like the examples on this page? Has both types.

http://kettlebellfitnessdk.wordpress.co ... the-swing/

The basic swing on that page is a definitive no. GS swinging is very specific to those looking to compete in that sport, for an athlete is another sport I would not advise its use.

Man, no wonder I stick to barbells. Less complicated.

nah, not that complicated. Just like anything many opinions and many of them with no proper thought behind them. Barbell has the same issues.

Ditto that. Kettlebells are one of the more natural feeling methods I've done. As long as it doesn't cause injury and produces good results, who can argue with technique?