Need help with a muscle imbalance push vs pull

Hello guys,

I have been very overzealous with my training in front lever and have neglected other upper body muscles. It is my big goal right now. I can perform a one leg extended front lever, but I struggle with pushing movements. It is strange because I am SSC advanced l-sit on the floor 15 seconds, which is much less than normal l-sit max, but so I figure I should have decent pushing strength but that is not the case.

I am still on basic bent-arm frog stand with SSC ending in September. I can perform about 20 pressups maximum if I go at a 212 tempo with protraction at the top. Back lever is at basic tuck SSC 20 seconds. About 7 dips full ROM. My pulling strength is high in comparison obviously. I have the one leg extended FL for 12 seconds right leg and 10 second left leg out, I can do 17 pullups at 212 tempo and my record is 21 at 101 tempo.

My concern here is for muscle and movement imbalances. I don't want my rear deltoids to continuously overpower the anterior deltoids. Internal rotation to be better than external rotation. I am scared for rotators cuff issues. Don't want to develop problems. I think big disparity came when Joshua recommended I do bulgarian rows when I struggling with flat tuck a while back. Well, I did so many freaking bulgarian rows every week I ended up getting 60 seconds flat tuck in one SSC cycle. And then I stopped SSC and started increasing FL volume, adding in pulls, rows, FL pulls, negatives, and statics. Obsession.

Now, I know front lever works basically every upper body muscle. Forearms, biceps, triceps, rear (and lateral?) deltoids, internal rotation and extension, the entire back from the tip top to the lowest low to the farthest sides, the chest, and the entire abdominal wall. And the hips of course. So I am thinking that my big focus to correct the push-pull imbalance should focus on anterior deltoid, protraction, and external rotation. Yes? I know planche works all of this, but like I said, I am still at bent frog and I think not ready for planche leans yet. Right?

Handstand pushups work all 3 deltoids, but I am still at pike HeSPU with 3 reps max. Not really good for protraction and ext rot either, I think? I try full negative sometimes but the ROM is embarresing. I do ido's scapular routine in my warm up, with gymgregs shoulder warm up too.

So what should I do? Good exercise to prevent problems and counter FL? I know planche is the natural pair with FL. I don't want to stop FL work, I am getting close but if that is the case...

Oh yea, I do killroy70 programming but like I said, I just focused so much on that FL and cared very little about everything else. Except legs! They're my favourite body part to train. Sorry for any english mistakes I leave England and english is getting bad again. There is no one to edit my writing!

Planche Leans and Pseudo Planche pushups besides dips are fine for you right now. More than likely you'll only be able to do box HeSPU. Think about some DB presses if you can do them but dips are fine as well.

hej,

I could be wrong about this but from what I understand you can or should be able to pull 2-3x more than you can push for a good balance. I am sure there is more to it than that but being able to pull twice what you can push seems like the standard for good balance from everything I have read. I guess you should address any weakness though for improvement.

triquetrum said:

I have been very overzealous with my training in front lever and have neglected other upper body muscles. It is my big goal right now. I can perform a one leg extended front lever, but I struggle with pushing movements. It is strange because I am SSC advanced l-sit on the floor 15 seconds, which is much less than normal l-sit max, but so I figure I should have decent pushing strength but that is not the case.

I had exactly the same problem as you (lacking pushing strength compared to pulling strength), but I am finally becoming more balanced as you are describing to have set as your goal. After having tried a lot of different approaches (including the ones you describe), I ended up building myself a ring pulley system (dream machine). That allowed me to do series of most basic gymnastic moves (requiring pushing strength) on rings with half my body weight and being stabilized at hip height (pelicans, planche, maltese, HS push ups, IC pull outs, inverse MU). I have trained with it now for about seven months and have gained a lot of overall (i.e. more balanced) upper body strength. So, with that gain in pushing strength, I have now started to train some holds and moves that I could not do seven months ago. One of which is the (flat) tucked planche (yes, I can do an advanced frog stand for 2 minutes or more). Because I can presently only hold it for 5 sec., I train it now with a rubber band (Ido Portal’s suggestion on this Forum a couple of years ago) and I am confident that in six months or so I can hold it (w/o rubber band assist) for 15-20 sec. So, don’t despair, just find the amount of body weight that you can handle (pushing). It may be much less (like half) of your full body weight, and then start with that reduced load near the bottom of the progression ladder (for the particular gymnastic hold). Good luck.

Thank you guys.

Blairbob said:

Planche Leans and Pseudo Planche pushups besides dips are fine for you right now. More than likely you'll only be able to do box HeSPU. Think about some DB presses if you can do them but dips are fine as well.

Sorry, correction is in order. I meant that I can do 3 reps max with box HeSPU, not pike. It's good then that I can work planche leans. But that said, do you mean that I should perform all these movements together (leans, PPP, box hespu, and dips)? Spread them out over the week and work to 5x5 or 3x5 etc for each movement?

Also, it's ok if instead of doing PPP now, I do normal pushups but move my hands back some inches every week or two?

ausswe said:

I could be wrong about this but from what I understand you can or should be able to pull 2-3x more than you can push for a good balance. I am sure there is more to it than that but being able to pull twice what you can push seems like the standard for good balance from everything I have read. I guess you should address any weakness though for improvement.

This is interesting, but I don't know. I see many guys at the training corner outdoors who do lots of dips half ROM and pushups. But hardly ever do I see someone exceed a mere 5 pull ups. Maybe it's because they're focusing on the glamour muscles? I can see where you might be right, since the back can grow to be very strong.

FritsMB said:

After having tried a lot of different approaches (including the ones you describe), I ended up building myself a ring pulley system (dream machine).

Ok I found a tutorial online for this dream machine, and I remember the ido portal band video. But, this reducing load, isn't it just like working a lower progression since the weight is removed? If I do band-assisted tuck planche, then it is like basically doing advanced frog, no?

ausswe said:

hej,

I could be wrong about this but from what I understand you can or should be able to pull 2-3x more than you can push for a good balance. I am sure there is more to it than that but being able to pull twice what you can push seems like the standard for good balance from everything I have read. I guess you should address any weakness though for improvement.

Man.. I wish I had that much pulling strength.. Maybe 1 day! From what I've seen though for most guys at the gym it's usually the opposite, a lot of guys can push big numbers but doing big pulls is a whole other ballgame... I'm going to have dedicate some time to getting that front lever..

Hmm, maybe I misread your post. What pulls and pushes are you talking about exactly?

Triquetrum, I wouldn't be too worried about it. Sounds like you're doing well but yeah, don't neglect the basics like dips.

IMO doing more ring support holds (as increase shoulder stability and decrease muscle imbalances) can help you beside written above.

triquetrum said:

Ok I found a tutorial online for this dream machine, and I remember the ido portal band video. But, this reducing load, isn't it just like working a lower progression since the weight is removed? If I do band-assisted tuck planche, then it is like basically doing advanced frog, no?

Using a rubber band (around your hips) you reduce the weight (of your legs, hips, lower back) that you have to keep up with your anterior deltoid (etc.) somewhat depending on the elasticity of the rubber band (in my case the reduction in weight is about 2 kg or about 3% of the total load that I need to keep up). With and advanced frog stand all that weight is on your elbows so there is hardly any load on your anterior deltoid.

Sorry, correction is in order. I meant that I can do 3 reps max with box HeSPU, not pike. It's good then that I can work planche leans. But that said, do you mean that I should perform all these movements together (leans, PPP, box hespu, and dips)? Spread them out over the week and work to 5x5 or 3x5 etc for each movement?

Also, it's ok if instead of doing PPP now, I do normal pushups but move my hands back some inches every week or two?

I would spread them out over the week. Planche leans on floor (not rings) and a pushing movement.

Thing is, horizontal pushing/pulling positions will not be very difficult if your feet are still on the floor or a box. You can make it challenging by long tempos but they still aren't as challenging as vertical pulls/pushes like pullups and dips or inverted pulls/pushes like inverted pulls "body curls" and HSPU. Now when you start doing tuck PL pushups or tuck FL rows, those become more difficult than the typical vertical pulls/push movements.

Yeah it's fine regarding PPPU's.

Basi