Static/isometrics and influence on speed

Hello! I didn't know where to put this thread so I'm sorry if I posted this in the wrong section.

Below is a quote from the book "Never Gymless". My strength training is a complement to Muay thai. If I'm training the static holds for longer than 7 seconds it may have a negative influence on my speed. So for example if I do some FSP training (especially planche) could I limit the times to 7 seconds and do more sets so I'm sure not to hinder my speed? Or maybe I should stop the FSP training?

"Maximal strength can be trained with slightly longer contractions. When training

this strength quality, you can approach approximately 5 seconds of maximal

force contraction. This protocol is commonly referred to as maximal effort

isometrics.

At first glance, you may be thinking that 5 seconds is not enough time for

significant strength improvements. Five seconds offers plenty of time however

when you are putting forth a maximal effort. Longer duration (ex. 10+ seconds)

isometrics are usually not necessary. Such a protocol has been shown to

negatively influence speed, coordination, and muscle elasticity. To avoid these

effects, Verkhoshansky recommends limiting isometric contractions to no more

than six seconds (1977). The justification for this argument is simple, when you

understand that the training protocol for absolute strength varies significantly

from that of explosive strength.

Speed is essential in the combat sporting world. You cannot risk losing speed for

the sake of extended isometric holds. You will gain plenty of strength with 5

second contractions, without risking negative effects to speed qualities. Losing

even a split second of speed can be significant in the combat arena."

The question I have is, is the speed loss temporary or permanent? Are studies being sited?

If there is excessive hypertrophy, it could effect speed permanently perhaps. Soreness may

effect ones ability to generate power. As an example, studies of longer duration static stretching show that

speed and force of contraction loss is temporary and is recovered during activity warm-up.

My guess is that as long as you are not exclusively performing maximum strength training you should be able

to retain your speed. I would also guess that after increasing your maximum strength, it should be possible to

improve your speed even further using your increased strength as a base. Strength doesn't always translate into speed,

but it can. Individual results may vary ...

Great points you bring up. I think I'm gonna continue with longer holds with my adv frog stand (I can hold adv tuck planche for a couple of seconds now but since i just starting with planche I will take it slowly so I dont injure myself) and later on when I'm starting with tucked planche reguarly I will only hold it for 5 sec or so because I don't wanna risk to lose speed. In the studies shorter isometrics was positive for speed and strength gains so I will stick with shorter holds and see how it goes. But in L-sit I will use longer holds.

Is there anyone who have felt the FSP affect your speed when you are doing longer holds? Like when you are getting stronger but can't move to a harder progression so you are performing longer holds for example tucked planche for 20-30 seconds. I have seen Coach Sommer write about how to much focus on maximal strength can hinder athletic perfomance.

Just make sure isometrics aren't the bulk of your training.

Long duration L holds and core holds are fine. I have been told that some Thai boxers do a lot of extended holds in L and german hang (for some weird ass reason. I'm thinking to just make it hurt).

Remember your power in Muay Thai like any other striking system is from the hips. Not whether you can do a planche or lever. It's weight transfer from hip to hip and twisting the spine.

Blairbob said:

Just make sure isometrics aren't the bulk of your training.

Long duration L holds and core holds are fine. I have been told that some Thai boxers do a lot of extended holds in L and german hang (for some weird ass reason. I'm thinking to just make it hurt).

Remember your power in Muay Thai like any other striking system is from the hips. Not whether you can do a planche or lever. It's weight transfer from hip to hip and twisting the spine.

Nope I'm doing very little isometrics now. My biggest focus is on dynamic exercises outside and of course the skill training.

I know the technique for punching and kicking since I compete in Muay Thai. If you have two identical boxers with the exact same technique but the only difference is one is stronger and more explosive than the other so the result will be he is gonna punch and kick harder.

Planche for me would be a fun thing to be able to do. Not that I think it's important for being a good fighter. I just was thinking how I could train for it without it having a negative influence on my speed or coordination.

If you want to train it for fun, sure.

Do you need to train it now. I doubt it's really going to make you slower. If anything the levers and planche will make your joints stronger. They don't really tax your bent arm strength that much. Your bent arm upper body strength could still be your bread and butter besides any lower body explosive work with some lower body strength work ( squats or weighted SLS or whatever ).

Blairbob said:

If you want to train it for fun, sure.

Do you need to train it now. I doubt it's really going to make you slower. If anything the levers and planche will make your joints stronger. They don't really tax your bent arm strength that much. Your bent arm upper body strength could still be your bread and butter besides any lower body explosive work with some lower body strength work ( squats or weighted SLS or whatever ).

I was also thinking it will make my shoulders stronger in the straight arm position so after a while maybe I could punch harder (especially with the long range hooks). Nice to hear you doubt it will make me slower =) But a couple weeks from a fight I think I will drop the planche training just to be sure and have fresh shoulders.

What do you mean with "Do you need to train it now"?

Personal experience ...

Early afternoon yesterday I trained FSP and FBE for about an hour (with 30 seconds holds).

Then around 7:30pm I played tennis and hit my fastest shots ever.

I don't mean some of my fastest, but my fastest period.

I will say though that it took a while to get into the groove. My shoulders may have been

more fatigued than usual. However when that cleared it was ... awesome.

Haha nice to hear! Have you been playing tennis for a long time? Did you play tennis before you started gymnastic training (fsp and all that) or did you start playing tennis after you began training FSP's?

FedorG said:

Haha nice to hear! Have you been playing tennis for a long time? Did you play tennis before you started gymnastic training (fsp and all that) or did you start playing tennis after you began training FSP's?

Gymnastic is more recent, a bit more than a year, tennis going on over 7 years.

I can't say for sure why it was better than usual, but the FSP even the same day didn't get in the way.

All I know is my oppoents and my partner were jaw dropped, and it felt good

Haha okay. Gives me hope for the future. Thanks for your reply =)

Gymnastics made a definite improvement on my tennis game when I used to play.

After one SSC cycle my serve jumped from a consistent 95 to 118mph. I maxed it at 126, but that next to never goes in.

Forehands and backhands felt definitely crisper, too.

FedorG said:

Haha okay. Gives me hope for the future. Thanks for your reply =)

No problem. It will happen!

Vincearoo said:

Gymnastics made a definite improvement on my tennis game when I used to play.

After one SSC cycle my serve jumped from a consistent 95 to 118mph. I maxed it at 126, but that next to never goes in.

Forehands and backhands felt definitely crisper, too.

Very cool. Not playing? Sorry to hear :cry:

Nah, I blew my knee out when I used to play in college...

I still like to play recreationally, but where I currently live there are no near by tennis courts.

Definitely miss it, give a little extra effort for me. Hope your guys' training is going well.