Stopped progressing...

Hello everyone,

I'm 19 for 130lbs from 98lbs. I've been doing this routine for months :

5x Planche variations

5x Handstand practice

5x FL progression

5x BL progression

Workout A :

3 sets handstand pushups

3 sets weighted pull ups

3 sets ring work (currently getting the 60sec hold)

Workout B :

3 sets weighted dips

3 sets weighted bar rows

3 sets ring work (currently getting the 60sec hold)

It last about 1h30 maybe.

Week : ABxABxx

I do the harder variation I can, 10-15secs for static positions, 4-6 reps for dynamic work.

I just got my rings, I'm bulding up a 60sec hold before doing anything with them.

I stopped progressing for this last month... I feel like maybe I shouldn't work the whole body 4 times with that intensity.

I lost a repetition on my pull ups recently too.

Important : I'm eating over maintenance to gain weight (hopefully, muscle)

What should I change ? I have little knowledge about programming.

Thanks a lot !

You might try doing a deload week every fourth week or so and see how that affects your training progress.

Everything you are doing is heavy. You don't have any light work in there. That is why you are not progressing, what you are doing is running into a wall because you are not building the tissue you need to progress. Eventually, if you keep this up, you may get through the plateau, but progress will continue to be extremely slow.

If you want more regular progress you need to be working on longer static holds twice per week and you also need to be working much higher reps and slower movements than you are currently using for at least two of those trainings.

So, one set of AB should be "easier" meaning a lighter resistance that allows for 35-60s of constant tension (the fastest speed allowed is 3s down, 3s up with NO BOUNCE anywhere and also no rest. It is not going to be easy) and I will recommend that you only do 3 sets on these days. That's for your dynamic work. Your static work should be the hardest position that you can do at least 30s with and still have perfect form. Do 2-3 sets, not more.

Keep the second AB workouts of the week the way they are if you like, OR you can just do the hard statics once per week on the last training day and do all the other static and all dynamic work the way I am suggesting. Keep it up for 3 months, and then switch back to what you are doing now for 8 weeks. Keep repeating this cycle.

This is the simplest way to do it. The timeframes mentioned are for specific reasons: The 12 weeks will allow for some substantial tissue gains in both your large muscles and the smaller supporting muscles (which only get worked well when you move slowly, so at least one set per day needs to be like 5-7 seconds down and 5-7 seconds up. That's 10-14 seconds per rep). Then the 8 weeks of heavier training will let you tap into about 95% of the strength you will have built up, and then you will pretty much stall out again if you don't go back to mostly light work.

This will get you where you want to go quickly and safely.

Really helpful posts, thanks a lot !

The Joshua approach could benefit more as the first two workouts of my weeks are on a busy work day (for the light workouts)

So to sum up, the first two "light" workouts could look like :

3x Planche variations

3x Handstand practice

3x FL progression

3x BL progression

Workout A :

3 sets box handstand pushups

3 sets unweighted pull ups

3 sets ring work (currently getting the 60sec hold)

Workout B :

3 sets unweighted dips

3 sets unweighted bar rows

3 sets ring work (currently getting the 60sec hold)

With

30sec+ per static work and

35-60 time under tension, at least 3sec up and down for dynamic work

no rest time between sets ?

so at least one set per day needs to be like 5-7 seconds down and 5-7 seconds up. That's 10-14 seconds per rep

Everyday ? Even non light ones ? Which one should I pick ?

Keep the second AB workouts of the week the way they are if you like, OR you can just do the hard statics once per week on the last training day and do all the other static and all dynamic work the way I am suggesting.

What would you recommend ? Isn't the second proposition basically 4 light days besides once where I do 'hard' static positions ?

And finally, which days should I eat at a surplus to limit fat gains ? Right now I'm eating at a surplus on workout days.

Thanks a lot for your time.

wwqll said:

So to sum up, the first two "light" workouts could look like :

3x Planche variations

3x Handstand practice

3x FL progression

3x BL progression

Workout A :

3 sets box handstand pushups

3 sets unweighted pull ups

3 sets ring work (currently getting the 60sec hold)

Workout B :

3 sets unweighted dips

3 sets unweighted bar rows

3 sets ring work (currently getting the 60sec hold)

With

30sec+ per static work and

35-60 time under tension, at least 3sec up and down for dynamic work

no rest time between sets ?

Rest 1-2 minutes, this is higher rep work and you won't need as much recovery time. It is important to hit failure with each set on these days, and it is important to move slowly. You have the rest down pretty well.

so at least one set per day needs to be like 5-7 seconds down and 5-7 seconds up. That's 10-14 seconds per rep

Everyday ? Even non light ones ? Which one should I pick ?

First or last, doesn't matter. When you go back to your heavier training for 8 weeks you should do at least 1 set this pace twice per week. That should be good enough to maintain things, more or less. 3x per week would probably be better. It is totally ok to do this on your last set after heavy work is done.

Right now, this should be one of the sets each day. It doesn't matter which set, but the first set is probably the one to go for. You may be unable to do this pace on the last set.

Keep the second AB workouts of the week the way they are if you like, OR you can just do the hard statics once per week on the last training day and do all the other static and all dynamic work the way I am suggesting.

What would you recommend ? Isn't the second proposition basically 4 light days besides once where I do 'hard' static positions ?

And finally, which days should I eat at a surplus to limit fat gains ? Right now I'm eating at a surplus on workout days.

Thanks a lot for your time.

I recommend whichever you are more comfortable with. Yes, the second proposition is as you say. You should have a slight surplus on all days, but keep it spread out evenly across the day. When you are trying to gain muscle, you want to be in positive energy balance as well as positive nitrogen balance for as long as humanly possible each day. The nutritiming app is a good way to figure out how to do this. www.nutritiming.com is the website.

Joshua Naterman said:

First or last, doesn't matter. [...] Right now, this should be one of the sets each day. It doesn't matter which set, but the first set is probably the one to go for. You may be unable to do this pace on the last set.

The first set after the FSP ?

That's my last question I promise

Oh, and I'm about 15% bf, should I lower my bodyfat before gaining weight ?

wwqll said:

Joshua Naterman said:

First or last, doesn't matter. [...] Right now, this should be one of the sets each day. It doesn't matter which set, but the first set is probably the one to go for. You may be unable to do this pace on the last set.

The first set after the FSP ?

That's my last question I promise

Oh, and I'm about 15% bf, should I lower my bodyfat before gaining weight ?

Yes, the fsp have their guidelines and the dynamic work has its own. I am talking about dynamic work, so this quideline applies to the dynamic work.

You can do whatever you like with your body fat, if you are eating and timing your nutrients correctly you'll recompose down to around 10% without really trying to, though that will probably take about a year if you are just focusing on building muscle. Could be faster, no way to know.

Eat good food, do your work, get the food when you need it. Use nutritiming to help you figure out when that is and how much to have.

Thanks for the additional info.

Just did my first light workout...

Went nice for the HS, Planche, box HSPU.

Had trouble going over 20sec with :

slow unweighted pull ups,

FL and BL (forearm gets sore first, especially with BL)

Any tips for those ? Thanks again !

Go slow and build up over time. I'm sure Josh will check in. My own methods are a bit different, but the just behind them is the same.

Cole Dano said:

You might try doing a deload week every fourth week or so and see how that affects your training progress.

Hey Cole, i've got one question, in which cases should someone make a deload week every fourth week instead of doing it in the last week of the cycle (6-8 weeks)??

How can someone know when to make a deload week??

When you feel you need one means you've gone to long. Few people are in tune enough to actually be able to reload by feel. Every 4th week is pretty standard, easy to implement and gets it in before you've pushed to far and need more time / work to recover. It is also a good stop to form check and change plans after if applicable. There are other factors but that is the just of it.

wwqll said:

Thanks for the additional info.

Just did my first light workout...

Went nice for the HS, Planche, box HSPU.

Had trouble going over 20sec with :

slow unweighted pull ups,

FL and BL (forearm gets sore first, especially with BL)

Any tips for those ? Thanks again !

You have just discovered your first weak point. Don't worry, it all gets stronger.

In my opinion there are a number of layers of training, and this is really just the foundational work. Slow movement allows you to learn where you are weak. When your prime movers become the first thing to fatigue you know you are making progress and have built a decent foundation for that particular movement.

Keep up the good work!

Joshua Naterman said:

Everything you are doing is heavy. You don't have any light work in there. That is why you are not progressing, what you are doing is running into a wall because you are not building the tissue you need to progress. Eventually, if you keep this up, you may get through the plateau, but progress will continue to be extremely slow.

If you want more regular progress you need to be working on longer static holds twice per week and you also need to be working much higher reps and slower movements than you are currently using for at least two of those trainings.

So, one set of AB should be "easier" meaning a lighter resistance that allows for 35-60s of constant tension (the fastest speed allowed is 3s down, 3s up with NO BOUNCE anywhere and also no rest. It is not going to be easy) and I will recommend that you only do 3 sets on these days. That's for your dynamic work. Your static work should be the hardest position that you can do at least 30s with and still have perfect form. Do 2-3 sets, not more.

So you should have a "light" workout and a "heavy" workout all the time?

In order to progress, you can't just always do the heaviest you can every time, but you need to be alternating with lighter/easier exercises and doing easier exercises too?

I read the entire post but I just got a little confused when you say "So, one set of AB should be "easier" meaning a lighter resistance that allows for 35-60s of constant tension (the fastest speed allowed is 3s down, 3s up with NO BOUNCE anywhere and also no rest. It is not going to be easy) and I will recommend that you only do 3 sets on these days. That's for your dynamic work."

Do you mean that he should just make his same exact workout except lighter to allow for more reps?

So he does his workout 4 times a week. How many times a week should you do the light workout and the heavy? Do you do both on the same day or separate?

Joshua Naterman said:

Keep the second AB workouts of the week the way they are if you like, OR you can just do the hard statics once per week on the last training day and do all the other static and all dynamic work the way I am suggesting. Keep it up for 3 months, and then switch back to what you are doing now for 8 weeks. Keep repeating this cycle.

Keep what up for 3 months and then switch back to what for 8 weeks? I dont understand.

Joshua Naterman said:

This is the simplest way to do it. The timeframes mentioned are for specific reasons: The 12 weeks will allow for some substantial tissue gains in both your large muscles and the smaller supporting muscles (which only get worked well when you move slowly, so at least one set per day needs to be like 5-7 seconds down and 5-7 seconds up. That's 10-14 seconds per rep). Then the 8 weeks of heavier training will let you tap into about 95% of the strength you will have built up, and then you will pretty much stall out again if you don't go back to mostly light work.

This will get you where you want to go quickly and safely.

Are you saying you should do 12 weeks light and then 8 weeks heavy and keep alternating?

Thanks for the additional info, Joshua.

A week can be for example 2 separated day light and 2 separated days heavy.

You do this for 12weeks, then for 8 weeks, the same way except there is only heavy workouts.

Joshua will correct me if I'm wrong I guess .

I'll keep this thread updated, maybe a post in some time to tell how it worked for me!

wwqll said:

A week can be for example 2 separated day light and 2 separated days heavy.

You do this for 12weeks, then for 8 weeks, the same way except there is only heavy workouts.

Joshua will correct me if I'm wrong I guess .

I'll keep this thread updated, maybe a post in some time to tell how it worked for me!

Yeah, this is what i thought about and also what i read. I think it could also be just alternating each day heavy, light, heavy, light, etc. I also saw heavy, medium, light, that being 3x a week. That's with weights because you can make exact adjustments. But with most bodyweight exercises you can't, well only if you do them weighted. The routine i saw with weights was 1 day heavy, then another day 10% less was medium and the last day 20% less was light.

You would obviously still progress even with your light exercises also eventually right? Like for example right now bodyweight dips would be in the light workout but later on they would have to be weighted even if they are in your light workout?

But is this only to gain size or strength or also the best way to progress in any exercise? Do Coach's athletes train like this, doing heavy/light workouts?

Coach may not think of it quite the way I am going to explain my opinion of the matter, but yes they do.

For one thing, that's a very basic breakdown of what the WOD template actually is, but things are a bit more spaced out. I won't go into more detail on Coach's WOD template. That's been done a number of times already.

Coach's athletes (like all gymnasts) also do 2-3 hours of technique training 4-6 days per week, which is by nature lighter work that is done with higher total repetition. Coach typically has his guys practice techniques that are well within their physical capability, which is part of why they don't get hurt very often compared to many other gyms, which is both the smart and right thing to do.

That's a fair bit of light to moderate training that, by the nature of our life as non-competitive gymnasts, we simply don't get. I won't speculate on whether or not my approach would work as well for a young competitive gymnast too much, because with a developing gymnast there's a lot more going on than just rapid acquisition of strength. They have to master the finer points of technique in order to perform at the top of their sport, and that takes much more time and practice than just building raw strength and physical ability.

We larger people need a LOT more muscle than they do to perform the same movements, and we don't have the same amount of training time, and are also not constrained by the need to make perfect routines. It is therefore important for us to focus on what we DO need, and pursue effective means of training to achieve them.

I'm not sure if anyone as paid attention to how the WODs have changed over time, but you will notice that on basic strength days (not that they are explicitly labeled, but those who have attended the seminars will know the entire template) there are 3 sets of 40-50 seconds of time under tension. 5 reps of a 505 tempo is 50 seconds. Same thing I am recommending right here, but when building the first layer of fitness you focus almost exclusively on building the structure. Learning how to use it comes later.

That's why what I am putting forth right here is pretty much the beginner version of the WOD cycle, which is really intended for more intermediate athletes when performed exactly as prescribed.

Ok.

Does it matter if you start out with 30-35s on the exercises? I dont know if it was because it's been a very long time since I did the exercises slowly taking 5 or 6 seconds to do each rep, but I only did like 35s max for chinups and before I could do 60s for chinups/pullups (all bodyweight of course). Maybe this time I did them more controlled than last time, last time they may have been slow but I think they weren't as controlled as I did them this time.

Man is it friking hard when you do the exercises slow!

Warrior said:

Ok.

Does it matter if you start out with 30-35s on the exercises? I dont know if it was because it's been a very long time since I did the exercises slowly taking 5 or 6 seconds to do each rep, but I only did like 35s max for chinups and before I could do 60s for chinups/pullups (all bodyweight of course). Maybe this time I did them more controlled than last time, last time they may have been slow but I think they weren't as controlled as I did them this time.

Man is it friking hard when you do the exercises slow!

Oh yea man, sometimes you only get 15-20s at first, but you build as you go. Control builds over time, and you get to learn how to dig deep hahaha That's an urge that we often want to satisfy, but isn't a good idea with heavy weight because form goes to crap on those last 1-2 reps.

Ok, that's great.

So 2 heavy and 2 light workouts a week should be good? I can do that right now.

Im also able to do 2 workouts during the day because I have time, well I could wake up really early and do one in the morning and I could do the other one in the afternoon or even in the evening. But is it necessary/better to do 2 workouts during the day or is just 1 enough?

1 is just fine. 2 takes more to recover from, even when you split up one bigger workout. It also takes more time in preparation and transit, etc. Mainly it just takes more time during the day to warmup and transit.

On paper it always makes sense but it seems more difficult to facilitate.

1 part shorter, 1 part longer works alright, a bit better IMO.

2 workouts per day can be difficult to schedule, with the food requirements and time and everything. If you have the time and you want to do them, they work well.

To be honest, I am finding that training 6 days per week, MWF upper body and Tu/TH/Sat lower body is fantastic. Workouts are quick, I am getting bigger and stronger from high TUT gymnastic-specific training (within the slowly growing limits of my shoulder) and I feel great.

It's a lot less trouble than 2 a days, and with lower body workouts being something like 20-25 minutes they pretty much don't even impact my schedule. Upper body is more like an hour. I really should be doing core along with legs, but I am currently doing no core training.

Joshua,

Just to make sure I have this clear, for the Light dynamic work, were shooting for at least 303 pace per rep with a goal of 35-60 seconds of time under tension per set? And at least one set where you go with a 505 to 707 pace?

Is this rep range still within the 3-5 range with the focus being on TUT instead of # of reps? As I have understood it from some of the other posts the # of reps is less important than TUT?

--Martin

mhodges said:

Joshua,

Just to make sure I have this clear, for the Light dynamic work, were shooting for at least 303 pace per rep with a goal of 35-60 seconds of time under tension per set? And at least one set where you go with a 505 to 707 pace?

Is this rep range still within the 3-5 range with the focus being on TUT instead of # of reps? As I have understood it from some of the other posts the # of reps is less important than TUT?

--Martin

The simple answer to the complicated question is yes, TUT is more important in this case.

Rep range is irrelevant, I have some sets where 3 reps takes me 60 seconds. Other sets I do 10 reps in 60 seconds. There is a difference between the two, but both have the same TUT range and that is the primary thing. Even more important than the number of seconds is to fail at the end of the set for this kind of work.

Failure is the failure of good form, and at first may occur in supporting muscles. Over time, as they adapt, the failure will eventually occur in the prime movers.

I dont know why I didnt ask this from the start but, will this work if you want strength+size (my goal)? This being having a heavy and a light workout and repeating the cycle of 12 weeks doing both then 8 weeks only strength.

Well,

Joshua Naterman said:

The timeframes mentioned are for specific reasons: The 12 weeks will allow for some substantial tissue gains in both your large muscles and the smaller supporting muscles (which only get worked well when you move slowly, so at least one set per day needs to be like 5-7 seconds down and 5-7 seconds up. That's 10-14 seconds per rep). Then the 8 weeks of heavier training will let you tap into about 95% of the strength you will have built up, and then you will pretty much stall out again if you don't go back to mostly light work.

By the way, I think gaining weight + strenght gain & rest should lead to size gains, but I'm not expert.