How to progress to an inverted planche or victorian?

Hey,

From what I understand no one has achieved an inverted planche and I am wondering if that is because it is just really hard or no one ever bothered? anyway I figured a victorian is kind of like an inverted maltese and was also wondering about progressions for a victorian as well. I would be interested on Peoples thoughts about how to train for an inverted planche. Would it be doing things like inverted planche leans or maybe going from a tuck L-sit but leaning back more and raising the hips in a kind of manna fashion? I am in no way close to having the required strength for this but it would be nice to know for further down the track. Coach if you see this your input would be greatly appreciated.

cheers =)

P.S. when i say inverted planche imagine going into manna leaning back more and then having your legs down so your body is horizontal to the ground. basically back lever position with hands on the ground.

ausswe said:

really hard or no one ever bothered?

It is not possible.

Falcon said:

ausswe said:

really hard or no one ever bothered?

It is not possible.

Why?

As far as difficulty, I imagine its because of a combination of not being able to lock your lats and being very close to the end of your arms natural rom. It'd be sick nasty if someone surprised the world with one at the Olympics

Rik de Kort said:

Falcon said:

ausswe said:

really hard or no one ever bothered?

It is not possible.

Why?

There isn't any bone to support the body mass, so it would all be soft tissue. You'd basically be relying on SITS muscles to manage a disadvantaged position with no bony support and no ligaments except the capsular ligament to hold the head of the humerus in the socket. It is possible that a very, very small person with skinny legs could do this on floor in theory, but I don't think it could ever happen on rings.

Even if, hypothetically, this were in theory possible it would not be a discussion to have with someone who did not already have a Manna first. That much should be obvious to all of us. Show personal video of manna and we can consider entertaining a private conversation. This kind of thing just ends up getting people hurt.

Of course, if what you mean is a hollowback then that's different. That's done all the time, but not in competition because it isn't worth enough points to be worthwhile apparently... I believe it was in the FX point of codes but not sure if it still is.

It's interesting. Before I really delved into VC training, I was goofing around with the inverted Planche. Doing foot supported versions and such. One exercise that really burned was a sort of a wall assisted manna/ inverted planche. It's hard to explain but it is what actually helped me to achieve my unassisted manna. (well, one with my feet more above my head due to a lack of flexibility). I sort jumped into a high manna, with my feet supported on a wall, and then lowered my feet until my body was more laid out. This exercise certainly gave me an increase in triceps strength.

Beware though, if you do any inverted planche leans or training at all, be prepared for intense triceps and real delt burning and cramping. Oh, and a high middle split hold would be a great place to start as well. :wink:

mirroredrain said:

It's interesting. Before I really delved into VC training, I was goofing around with the inverted Planche. Doing foot supported versions and such. One exercise that really burned was a sort of a wall assisted manna/ inverted planche. It's hard to explain but it is what actually helped me to achieve my unassisted manna. (well, one with my feet more above my head due to a lack of flexibility). I sort jumped into a high manna, with my feet supported on a wall, and then lowered my feet until my body was more laid out. This exercise certainly gave me an increase in triceps strength.

Beware though, if you do any inverted planche leans or training at all, be prepared for intense triceps and real delt burning and cramping. Oh, and a high middle split hold would be a great place to start as well. :wink:

This sounds like an interesting exercise. Thanks for sharing. I'll have to try it.

Here is an old thread from the Dragondoor forums, with advice from Coach Sommer himself. It suggests that reverse planche is possible, and should be trained for by going after a high middle split hold:

http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/showthrea ... se+planche

Hope this helps

mirroredrain said:

It's interesting. Before I really delved into VC training, I was goofing around with the inverted Planche. Doing foot supported versions and such. One exercise that really burned was a sort of a wall assisted manna/ inverted planche. It's hard to explain but it is what actually helped me to achieve my unassisted manna. (well, one with my feet more above my head due to a lack of flexibility). I sort jumped into a high manna, with my feet supported on a wall, and then lowered my feet until my body was more laid out. This exercise certainly gave me an increase in triceps strength.

Beware though, if you do any inverted planche leans or training at all, be prepared for intense triceps and real delt burning and cramping. Oh, and a high middle split hold would be a great place to start as well. :wink:

I have also been doing inverted planched leans and the wall assisted manna hold and I'm definitely with you about the triceps cramps and I also found out that it was a good strengthener for the scapula retractors when you keep them retracted throughout the hold or perform concentric and eccentric retractions throughout the hold.

Would you mind posting a pic or video of your manna? I'm not disbelieving you, just wanted see how it would look like with little hamstring flexibility. I've recently started to train for the manna and do not want to increase flexibility in my hamstrings, but wasn't sure if it would be possible to reach a manna with bent legs, but hearing news of you achieving one without adequate flexibility makes me feel more positive. By the way, did you just build up to the manna using only the wall assisted hold or did you also do the middle split holds as well and how long did it take you to get your manna? Thanks in advance!

Congrats on your manna with legs more over your head, it must be harder than one with legs fully extended since there will be less counter-weight to help, but maybe not as aesthetic.

nf46 said:

Here is an old thread from the Dragondoor forums, with advice from Coach Sommer himself. It suggests that reverse planche is possible, and should be trained for by going after a high middle split hold:

http://kbforum.dragondoor.com/showthrea ... se+planche

Hope this helps

I have also seen this post by Coach and I guess the inverted planche may be possible after all, maybe at least the straddle version since some of Coach's athletes almost reached one. I'm not sure how much time those athletes who almost got the high middle split hold spent on actually training it. I hope Coach can elaborate more about the inverted planche and high middle split hold when he has the time and maybe show a photo or video of one of his athletes attempting one if possible.

B1214N:

If your flexibility is inadequate, work your flexibility!

How is that not obvious?

We saw Dillon lift to maybe 30-40 degrees below horizontal in a decently straddled MSH, with legs still parallel to the ground, which was pretty insane. Those last 30 degrees or so are a big increase in force, and the hips were obviously still piked, so I definitely think it's iffy. I do not think it is something that most people are built to be able to achieve, but some might. Dillon really is one of those outliers on the bell curve.

You never know, of course, but even victorians aren't quite even with the rings. To hold oneself even higher, in a position where the majority of the lats would have no line of pull, would be pretty crazy. I probably shouldn't say impossible per se, but certainly would require some impressive genes as well as impressive long-term goal-specific training. I know we're talking about a floor or PB element, I'm just saying this to point out something about the biomechanics involved.

On the other hand, we're talking about a floor/pbar element here. Planche is much easier on the floor than on the rings. I'd assume something likewise holds for inverted planche.

Hey take it easy on the guy! Stretching and improving flexibility is healthy for everyone but if it's not on his personal list of priorities that's cool. Albeit as long as the proper warm up and at least light stretching precautions are taken to avoid injury.

Anyway here is a video B1214N, my hips are definitely a little low, and as I stated before my feet are facing the ceiling, but i don't actively train the element so...

Rik de Kort said:

On the other hand, we're talking about a floor/pbar element here. Planche is much easier on the floor than on the rings. I'd assume something likewise holds for inverted planche.

In absolute terms, certainly, which I mentioned in my post. The position Dillon was in was somewhat equivalent to a tuck planche in terms of that hypothetical progression. He couldn't lift into a full Manna, though he did get surprisingly close. From looking at the structure of the shoulder and the muscle attachments, there is a very very small mass of muscle that could stabilize the shoulder in the hypothetical inverted planche. As the leverage gets worse (as you progress towards the end position) a good bit of the musculature working initially gets taken out of the line of pull. That's part of why you have to fold the legs back to get into Manna, you simply have to keep within certain tolerances.

I don't think that inverted planche is worth discussing any further until someone achieves a lift into manna, because that's the point at which you would start stretching out towards the hypothetical inverted planche. I am amazed that no one else has mentioned this.

Joshua Naterman said:

a lift into manna, because that's the point at which you would start stretching out towards the hypothetical inverted planche. I am amazed that no one else has mentioned this.

I think we all implicitly assumed that. Still, it's fun to discuss these type of things.

Rik de Kort said:

B1214N:

If your flexibility is inadequate, work your flexibility!

How is that not obvious?

I didn't want to work my hamstring flexibility because I didn't want to lose that certain stiffness and elasticity in my hamstrings for my sprints.

mirroredrain said:

Hey take it easy on the guy! Stretching and improving flexibility is healthy for everyone but if it's not on his personal list of priorities that's cool. Albeit as long as the proper warm up and at least light stretching precautions are taken to avoid injury.

Anyway here is a video B1214N, my hips are definitely a little low, and as I stated before my feet are facing the ceiling, but i don't actively train the element so...

Thanks mirroredrain! That was a nice attempt and you almost got it. I think you probably could have reached the manna position if you started pressing up with straddled legs first. My hamstring flexibility level is about the same as yours btw.

Back on topic - It is true that someone would need to be able to do a manna before being able to work on other inverted planche progression as the manna is sort of a progression to that as well, but as always these discussions make for entertaining reading . I think a high manna would be close to being equivalent to a round tuck inverted planche.

B1214N said:

Rik de Kort said:

B1214N:

If your flexibility is inadequate, work your flexibility!

How is that not obvious?

I didn't want to work my hamstring flexibility because I didn't want to lose that certain stiffness and elasticity in my hamstrings for my sprints.

You do know sprinters with tight hamstrings are more liable to get a hamstring injury? Also, this study found that static stretching, when not done before sprinting, didn't affect sprint or vertical jump performance.

It seems you're confusing static stretching pre-workout with static stretching either on off days or after workouts. They're not the same. Stretching before workouts does cut strength output, but that is a temporary condition.

You don't need tightness in your hamstrings. You need strength and flexibility.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but it is what it is.

You are right that too much tightness is bad for sprinters, but having extreme flexibility like a gymnast is detrimental for sprinters. There is a an amount of flexibility that is optimal, but not at extreme flexibility like in the case of the manna. I'm not confused with static stretching pre-workout and post-workout, but thanks for the reply anyways.

B1214N said:

You are right that too much tightness is bad for sprinters, but having extreme flexibility like a gymnast is detrimental for sprinters. There is a an amount of flexibility that is optimal, but not at extreme flexibility like in the case of the manna. I'm not confused with static stretching pre-workout and post-workout, but thanks for the reply anyways.

Yes, that is correct as well. I misinterpreted your post, so sorry about that.

It's ok. Your post offers some great info others might not know about.

It's quite possible to do it....................................................................................in space with zero gravity

haha gregor! very true! maybe I should become an astronaut. gregor do you train for a victorian at all? and do you think the reason gymnasts dont do victorians in general is because it is just ridiculously harder than everything else or because its a little bit harder than say a maltese and no body really focuses on it?

B1214N said:

You are right that too much tightness is bad for sprinters, but having extreme flexibility like a gymnast is detrimental for sprinters. There is a an amount of flexibility that is optimal, but not at extreme flexibility like in the case of the manna. I'm not confused with static stretching pre-workout and post-workout, but thanks for the reply anyways.

Considering how fast I have seen gymnast sprint down a vault run way, I really doubt this is true. I have no data, but I would say our matured gymnastic athletes are easily running around a speed of 12 flat or less for a 100m. Which would be quite well considering they don't directly train for a sprinting event.

Matt JC said:

B1214N said:

You are right that too much tightness is bad for sprinters, but having extreme flexibility like a gymnast is detrimental for sprinters. There is a an amount of flexibility that is optimal, but not at extreme flexibility like in the case of the manna. I'm not confused with static stretching pre-workout and post-workout, but thanks for the reply anyways.

Considering how fast I have seen gymnast sprint down a vault run way, I really doubt this is true. I have no data, but I would say our matured gymnastic athletes are easily running around a speed of 12 flat or less for a 100m. Which would be quite well considering they don't directly train for a sprinting event.

It may look fast, but it is not optimal. 12 flat in the 100m is a big difference from sub 10 or even sub 11. Even a couple tenths of a second is quite a big gap. You may be able to still get to sub 11 with extreme flexibilty, but you will not reach your potential with that much flexibility in the hamstrings and hips. In sprinting, you want every help you can get to get from point A to point B that comply with the rules and having some tightness or stiffness in the hamstrings is beneficial because it makes your tendons/hamstrings springy which would make it easier to sprint faster. So for sprinters you want enough stiffness that doesn't inhibit ROM and posture.