Two Strength Questions

I just want to know your experience with two things if you wouldn't mind taking the time to answer.

For those of you who do (or know someone) GHRs, how did it affect your squat? I want to reach a one leg ghr AND a 2x bodyweight squat. But I put the bodyweight moves first. I'm curious to see if the olghr would give me part of the squat already.

Second, has anyone here seen an adult who started from nothing, achieve a manna. This move is actually super hard. And starting to seem like it's maybe not possible for everyone.

for your second questions, maybe the shoulder flexibility is the limiting factor?

1) I guess this depends on your structural balance. If hamstring is the limiting factor and you achieve a GHR single legged then your BSQ is bound to increase. Right now though, I'm starting to think that for non gymnasts (people who jump, not rebound) the best way to improve leg strength is through olympic lifting.

2) I'm going to start work on this after completion of a project this month. (I'm down to train this one with you when I get back to DC) I haven't heard of any adult beginner achieving this skill or coming remotely close. Although to be fair I think it's partially because few, if any, of us (myself included) have put in the honest effort to be in a position to judge its level of possibility.

I think it is a flexibility issue as well. I'll work that in terms of shoulders and hamstrings.

I definitely agree with the olympic lifting comment, John. I have gotten to power cleaning my bodyweight and even with that small number, my tumbling and vertical are way higher. I actually have to relearn a few skills because I am overrotating now.

I am all down for the manna training sessions! I have been putting in a lot of work toward it and with some difference assistance exercises but I realized I needed to change the form (and drop about 20 lbs).

Regarding your first question: I am decent at Harop Curls/GHR's(have a little pike in the hips) and superset them with weighted squats. I haven't noticed any particular correlation between performance in 1 movement and the other. Although, I have not trained my deadlift for quite a while and recently pulled a PR of +40 lbs(from 235x5 to 275x5). I attribute that to the Harop Curls/GHR's.

I don't see any reason for GHR's to improve squat performance, unless(as John noted) it strengthens the weak link. But both movements are essential to develop explosiveness in the lower body. I think you will have to make squatting a priority to improve squatting and overall explosiveness.

As far as the manna goes, I'm not sure how many will achieve it. Ido doesn't seem to think there is benefit to training it at all. The only person I can think of that was somewhat close was Steven Low: http://youtu.be/bubIS-oVB28

I agree with your first point, Raja. It probably won't have a direct correlation. I have a place for doing GHRs at one of my jobs, and a squat rack at the other. I am choosing the GHR for now because I like bodyweight tricks. Afterward, I'll squat if I feel its needed although just bodyweight legs and olympic lifting seem to be covering a lot of bases lately.

I saw that post Ido wrote with the manna. Which Is why I asked here. But I have also seen that Steven Low is pretty close to it. So that gives me enough hope to not quit. Even if it may be impossible, it's better than wondering "what if" right?

Regarding back squat, strengthening the hamstrings should help you increase your backsquat provided you are squatting all the way down and fully stretching/activating them - I don't know how experienced you are with squatting but technique can be hindrance i.e. poor technique will lead to sub-optimal hamstring activation and a weaker squat.

Strong hamstrings SHOULD help your vertical jump however, but only if you are working with exercises which extend the hip to activate the semimembranous and semitendinosous muscles. GHR do but only to a certain extend, heavy reverse hyperextensions and powercleans are the money moves with that. Hope this helps, Charles Poliquin is probably the man to consult on questions like this, here's a link to his articles:

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Articles ... icles.aspx

Thank you! I actually have read that one. I'm in the process of becoming a PICP certified trainer. I was looking particularly for peoples personal experience with the ghr and their squats. I know it will do a world of benefit either way though.

Having done a ton of both and also having athletes do both, the cross over will also be related to how you perform them. GHR's once base line conditioned will do better with added velocity due to the typical fiber make up. If your posterior chain is the weak point then they have more cross over to the squat if not then they will assist in recovery and maintaining good balance between the two.

A double bodyweight squat is not really that extreme of a goal. Smart dedicated time under the bar will get you there.

Nic Branson said:

GHR's once base line conditioned will do better with added velocity due to the typical fiber make up.

A double bodyweight squat is not really that extreme of a goal. Smart dedicated time under the bar will get you there.

I knew that but when you said it, it kind of put 2 and 2 together for me. I'll start training them with a bit more velocity regardless.

I am actually looking over my old records and I stopped squatting about a year ago but had gotten to 225 for 5 reps. Apparently, double bodyweight isn't far away.

PHILIP said:

I agree with your first point, Raja. It probably won't have a direct correlation. I have a place for doing GHRs at one of my jobs, and a squat rack at the other. I am choosing the GHR for now because I like bodyweight tricks. Afterward, I'll squat if I feel its needed although just bodyweight legs and olympic lifting seem to be covering a lot of bases lately.

I saw that post Ido wrote with the manna. Which Is why I asked here. But I have also seen that Steven Low is pretty close to it. So that gives me enough hope to not quit. Even if it may be impossible, it's better than wondering "what if" right?

Your oly lifting may be limited by strength if you forego squatting. If you are going to use weights(especially O-lifting) for leg strength, you won't be able to get around squatting if you want maximal results.

raja said:

PHILIP said:

I agree with your first point, Raja. It probably won't have a direct correlation. I have a place for doing GHRs at one of my jobs, and a squat rack at the other. I am choosing the GHR for now because I like bodyweight tricks. Afterward, I'll squat if I feel its needed although just bodyweight legs and olympic lifting seem to be covering a lot of bases lately.

I saw that post Ido wrote with the manna. Which Is why I asked here. But I have also seen that Steven Low is pretty close to it. So that gives me enough hope to not quit. Even if it may be impossible, it's better than wondering "what if" right?

Your oly lifting may be limited by strength if you forego squatting. If you are going to use weights(especially O-lifting) for leg strength, you won't be able to get around squatting if you want maximal results.

I am actually waiting to plateua but for some reason, I still haven't. I am only at 170 for power cleans which isn't much at all, but for not squatting, it's still going up. Which is surprising.

PC from floor or hang?

From floor it's a lot more deadlift dependent. From a hang, well, squat is going to matter quite a bit more. Either way you won't plateau until whatever your weakest link is close to its limits. Guess you're just that strong!

Joshua Naterman said:

PC from floor or hang?

From floor it's a lot more deadlift dependent. From a hang, well, squat is going to matter quite a bit more. Either way you won't plateau until whatever your weakest link is close to its limits. Guess you're just that strong!

That explains it! My deadlift is actually pretty decent. I also used to squat and oly lift before. Thanks Slizzardman!

PHILIP said:

Joshua Naterman said:

PC from floor or hang?

From floor it's a lot more deadlift dependent. From a hang, well, squat is going to matter quite a bit more. Either way you won't plateau until whatever your weakest link is close to its limits. Guess you're just that strong!

That explains it! My deadlift is actually pretty decent. I also used to squat and oly lift before. Thanks Slizzardman!

No problem! In my personal experience, and this is just me, the deadlift matters a whole lot more for the power clean. The front squat matters for full cleans because you have to stand up, and somewhat for a hang clean as well because you are starting in a much more erect position but even for a hang power clean I think that the deadlift matters more.

My first day in the gym in high school (after a lifetime of lifting up fallen trees for fun and being able to jump into the back of an 18 wheeler on a BMX bike with no ramp, mind you) I deadlifted 295, PC'd 160-something from the floor (my bodyweight at the time) and could barely back squat 135. Go figure.

Joshua Naterman said:

PHILIP said:

Joshua Naterman said:

PC from floor or hang?

From floor it's a lot more deadlift dependent. From a hang, well, squat is going to matter quite a bit more. Either way you won't plateau until whatever your weakest link is close to its limits. Guess you're just that strong!

That explains it! My deadlift is actually pretty decent. I also used to squat and oly lift before. Thanks Slizzardman!

No problem! In my personal experience, and this is just me, the deadlift matters a whole lot more for the power clean. The front squat matters for full cleans because you have to stand up, and somewhat for a hang clean as well because you are starting in a much more erect position but even for a hang power clean I think that the deadlift matters more.

My first day in the gym in high school (after a lifetime of lifting up fallen trees for fun and being able to jump into the back of an 18 wheeler on a BMX bike with no ramp, mind you) I deadlifted 295, PC'd 160-something from the floor (my bodyweight at the time) and could barely back squat 135. Go figure.

The funny thing about that post is that those are my actual stats! When I tried a deadlift, I did 300 the first try but my form was bad and I stopped. Same PC. And I use 135 to squat in that manner you said before. What funny correlations!

When you guys say 2x bodyweight squat, is it to parallel back squats or atg back squats, high bar or low bar? Anyways, regarding the comment about power cleans for leg strength, I think you should stick to heavy squats and deadlifts for maximal strength and cleans for leg power and explosiveness, even though you can increase max strength by doing power exercises, it would just work up to a certain point and you would have to go back to max strength lifts like squats to keep increasing max strength. I don't really have much actual experience in leg strength and conditioning, but these are from what I have read from various sources so far.

B1214N said:

When you guys say 2x bodyweight squat, is it to parallel back squats or atg back squats, high bar or low bar? Anyways, regarding the comment about power cleans for leg strength, I think you should stick to heavy squats and deadlifts for maximal strength and cleans for leg power and explosiveness, even though you can increase max strength by doing power exercises, it would just work up to a certain point and you would have to go back to max strength lifts like squats to keep increasing max strength. I don't really have much actual experience in leg strength and conditioning, but these are from what I have read from various sources so far.

I actually don't even consider a half squat to be a squat. Always ATG. And yes that's true. Eventually the gains should stop. But if my deadlift is a big factor in it, it will be a while. Thankfully, squats aren't the limiting factor.

The funny thing about that post is that those are my actual stats! When I tried a deadlift, I did 300 the first try but my form was bad and I stopped. Same PC. And I use 135 to squat in that manner you said before. What funny correlations!

be careful with deadlift, a bad form with multiple times of your bodyweigh can easily send you to hospital

Anything with bad form can. Every lift you do should be good. Deadlift is no different. It is actually a more natural movement then squatting with weight.

Deadlift.

Well "good" is a relative term. Should say not lifting blatantly unsafe. The amount of weight does change a lift. Not usually mentioned because so few get into those large numbers.

raja said:

{regarding Manna} ... Ido doesn't seem to think there is benefit to training it at all.

Ido is completely wrong in this regard; although in his defense it is probably due to his experience in high-level Gymnastic Strength Training™ being quite limited.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I never noticed that post but I never saw where Ido claimed it had no benefit. He did say it is something some people don't achieve. But I'm sure he can see the benefits of it in terms of keeping the shoulder girdle balanced. I do hope to prove him wrong on the genetic part though! . Though if my genetics eventually allow me to get it and I further prove his point, I'm okay with that too!