CTI and Reverse CTI

I didn't create this thread so much with the idea of debating whether Jasper Benincasa's legendary CTI was legitimate or not. (although I would love to hear Coach Sommer's or another professional opinion on the movement and whether or not it is possible) I created this thread mainly to discuss progressions towards the CTI and the strength gains that one could gain from using an easier version of the CTI.

I mentioned in another post that I have a pair of 'iron cross trainers' that are similar to rings but have forearm support built in and can be adjusted incrementally based on ones strength needs. Using these trainers, I have been working on The 'Close to Impossible' and other various advanced straight arm movements. With the added forearm support i can briefly pause in the horizontal position that the CTI requires. I posted this topic mainly to discuss what muscles would primarily be used in this movement and to theorize whether or not a CTI would actually be possible, or how close you can get to achieving one.

In addition, I have improvised what I call the Reverse CTI, which is the same movement but your arms are pressed behind you and parralel to the floor, rather than in front of you, in what is sort of a feet-to-the-ground back lever. This version has so far been easier and I can pause longer in it than Jasper Benincasa's original version.

I wasnt sure whether to put this topic under the ring strength section, but since i plan on working variations of them on the rings, i assumed it applied. Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated. I can also post videos or pictures to clear up any confusion.

Thank you!

Pics would be neat!

For the real thing, I would imagine that you would have to have an incredible grip AND sticky gloves. Other than that, monster lats for the OG CTI. The back one, I have no idea. Probably somewhat similar to BL pulls: extreme strength in the inner elbow with a straight arm (includes all elbow flexors and forearm flexors), pecs, anterior delts, lats to keep the shoulder in the socket (no idea now much these help with the actual pull) and whatever else you feel working.

I thought the CTI was impossible because isn't it against the law of physics?

I also thought the CTI to be impossible until I read the article about Jasper Benincasa on beastskills.com There is another picture of the move, seemingly taken at the same time as the one where you cannot see his legs. In this one you see his entire body with a little lower angle. Jim writes a bit about the possibility of it being photoshopped and his arguments against it seems legit. It must take absolutely insane grip strength along with superb upper body power to be able to pull off something as crazy as that.

http://beastskills.com/blog/blog/id/104/

Nah, its possible, you just have to have a grip strength close to closing CoC #4, plus you would need lots of chalk and maybe some corn syrup so the bar would be sticky, then pulling strength, if we would take anything close to Jasper's stregth as a prereq., that would take you some time, and would depend on the genetic limit of one's body I suppose.

so far there are only 5 people in the world who can close CoC #4.

i have just expressed my opinion in a post of ashita where i did (my father did) some general counts...i assume that for a man of 160 cm and an arm of 60 cm you have to generate about 17000 newton of grip strength to stay in CTI....i have seen some bbuilders squat 400kg...about 4000 newton with some of the biggest muscles of the body, quads and gluteus.

so my position is clear about the CTI, not possible.

First off thanks for all the responses guys! Movements like these and the Inverted planche have always intrigued me because of their "elusiveness"! Achieving any one of them would simply be life changing. I'm no physics major but personally I do believe the CTI to be possible, at least in the recently released photo on beastskills.com, as handbalancer mentioned earlier.

Below I've included a couple of links to brief vids of the exercises.

The first one is my idea for a Reverse CTI. The one I recorded wasn't my best, but here it is.

This one is Jasper's original CTI scaled to my ability level.

Comments and criticisms welcome

Here's my calculation for CTI:

Assuming a person with a weight of 65 kg (143lb) and arm length of 0.6 m, the torque generated at the pivot point (grip) is about 282 lb-ft. Well, how much is that?? To give your an idea:

If you ever had to change a flat tire in the middle of the road, the general recommended torque for wheel lugs is 75 to 90 lb-ft. And max torque generated by the engine of a 2012 BMW 328i? 260 lb-ft

You do, of course, realize that this basically turns into a FL and a BL if you keep a perfectly straight body? The only reason you are as upright as you are is because the pivot point (end of the moment arm) is basically at your elbow. Your center of mass will have to stay directly underneath the pivot point and you are going to be in a FL. Either that or your arms will go wider and you will do a butterfly. Same goes for the reverse, except replace FL with BL.

Thats disheartening! It felt like with the cti I was basically lowering into an l sit cti instead of a front lever, since my torso seems to be staying relatively vertical. I can do both front and back levers and it does feel somewhat different so I'll keep training it. I'm sure you are correct though that as I continue to train I'll find myself lowering into what are basically back and front levers. We'll see what happens

Wait, THE CTI we are talking about here, is it with body perpendicular (complete vertical) to the ground or slanted at an angle? Because a completely vertical body would be even more impossibly impossible. I think structure-wise your center of gravity should be directly beneath the bar (as shown in that photograph, his pelvis is beneath the bar), so the body has to be at an angle, unless you dip your hands in Gorrila glues....I could only imagine...

seiyafan said:

Wait, THE CTI we are talking about here, is it with body perpendicular (complete vertical) to the ground or slanted at an angle? Because a completely vertical body would be even more impossibly impossible. I think structure-wise your center of gravity should be directly beneath the bar (as shown in that photograph, his pelvis is beneath the bar), so the body has to be at an angle, unless you dip your hands in Gorrila glues....I could only imagine...

Yea his body is at an angle, though his arms are pretty close to parallel with the ground.

According to John Gill, who was close to Jasper, the move does take quite a bit of grip strength but not excessive. It was stated that it required a great deal of neck and shoulder strength. He also thinks that it requires similar strength to a "collapsed victorian". Of course I have not attempted either position so I'm not sure if this is true.

Yes, I am by no means suggesting that there aren't some extreme positions possible, just that physics never goes out to lunch.

I would think that it is reasonable to hold that full body shot for a few seconds. I am not too sure about the top photo, that is likely not a static position. There are, however, rare beasts that walk among us and it is possible that with grip aids there are a small percentage of people who are the right size with the right genetics to have a short pause. Just consider that this is one of the most well-known moves within fitness circles and yet there is not one single person in 50 years who has been able to duplicate the move, despite all the steroids and improvements in nutrition and strength development. This, all by itself, is a solid argument for this move not being possible as a static position. A fairly slow yielding movement, that might be possible. I've seen Beastmode do them explosively on youtube and he is HUGE. I've never seen a slow one by anyone, and you know they would be showing it off if they could do it.

Just needed to tell you guys if any of you have instagram there is a street workout and gym monkey with the Instagram name hivog that does a cti on one of his videos... Its legit

you mean this one...? 

http://instagram.com/p/eBPoh6Qy9q/

His foot is clearly supported by the pole.

I vaguely remember some other post about this where having your foot against the post was nearly the equivalent to the strength of a front lever.

ausswe said:

I vaguely remember some other post about this where having your foot against the post was nearly the equivalent to the strength of a front lever.

Yes, unfortunately, even I can do this. No way can I hold that position by myself, but if someone pushes my feet back, it might be easier than full FL.

(I totally had to try after the last thread on this kind of disappointing, felt like wasted time if I'm honest)

edit;

Full disclosure it probably wasn't perfect, but if it's within reach of someone like me, it's not even in the same spectrum as the movement that these remarkably strong people have been chasing.

ausswe said:

I vaguely remember some other post about this where having your foot against the post was nearly the equivalent to the strength of a front lever.

It is much easier than a FL.

What is "CoC #4" ?

I've heard that Frank Moderano (street workout) claims that he can do CTI. I saw a photo with him doing CTI, but I think it's fake. 

Radek said:

What is "CoC #4" ?

 

I've heard that Frank Moderano (street workout) claims that he can do CTI. I saw a photo with him doing CTI, but I think it's fake. 

He had someone take pictures of him doing "Lat Swings" which is basically a bar muscle up with a descent that starts by an explosive horizontal push away from the bar followed by a downward swing. If the photographer is decent he or she can and will catch the model in the position of a static hold CTI. If it isn't a video of someone actually defying gravity, it isn't going to be the CTI. Jasper Benincasa's CTI is closer to a front lever than what is now called the CTI. The linked article mentions the CTI being a half way point in the transition to a front lever from a Victorian.

CoC is Captains of Crush grippers from ironmind. The hardest one is #4. Very few can close this.

The picture in that article about Benincasa is taken close to the point in time where he claims to perform the CTI, but is not a picture of that. Jim Bathurst from Beastskills theorises that it is taken as Benincasa swings down from the CTI, which is pictured in the previously publicized picture. However, in that picture, only the upper part of his body is shown. 

I'm not sure why everyone focuses so much on the grip strength required. As far as I can see, this fixation is based on the assumption that there is relatively low friction between the hands and the bar. If the hands were glued in place, the required grip strength would not be excessive. Benincasa has himself stated that he used rosin, or other compounds to prevent his hands from slipping on other occasions, so it seems reasonable to expect him to have done so in this instance. This would make it a matter of whether the wrists, elbows and shoulders could keep up.

Kasper Stangerup said:

The picture in that article about Benincasa is taken close to the point in time where he claims to perform the CTI, but is not a picture of that. Jim Bathurst from Beastskills theorises that it is taken as Benincasa swings down from the CTI, which is pictured in the previously publicized picture. However, in that picture, only the upper part of his body is shown. 

 

I'm not sure why everyone focuses so much on the grip strength required. As far as I can see, this fixation is based on the assumption that there is relatively low friction between the hands and the bar. If the hands were glued in place, the required grip strength would not be excessive. Benincasa has himself stated that he used rosin, or other compounds to prevent his hands from slipping on other occasions, so it seems reasonable to expect him to have done so in this instance. This would make it a matter of whether the wrists, elbows and shoulders could keep up.

The reason people make a big deal about the grip is because of the leverage involved. Your bodyweight is suspended at arm's length, approximately 24" away from the bar, whereas your grip exerts force at the surface of the bar; maybe 1" away from the center. Even with rosin, maintaining that hold would require grip strength analogous to grabbing the drive-shaft of a mid-sized SUV and preventing the motor from spinning.