finally know why my pull-up sucks still

The other day I was playing with the lat pulldown machine and I finally realized why my pull-ups are still weak. Before I would never touch a machine because I figured if you can do 5-7 pull-ups a set for a couple of sets why bother with the machine. So I put my body weight (160lb) on the machine and only managed to pull about my eye level (not even chin level). Then I thought to myself what's gonna be heaviest weight I can pull down to my nipple line, to my surprise I could only do 120lb max for one rep. Well, that explains it a lot, right? I even tried to pull the bar all the way down to my thigh and for that I would need half of my body weight to do it.

So the lesson is I will be spending the next couple of weeks if not months to try to pull the bar to my nipple line with my body weight to make my pull-ups more solid. What do you think guys?

Another question is once the bar passes the mid chest level, are different muscle groups being engaged? Because one time I felt a slight discomfort in my elbow with only 120 lb. I had never had any elbow issues doing pull-ups.

Yeah, I don't know why pulling your bodyweight in a lat pulldown machine is harder than doing bodyweight pull-ups as when I first used a lat pulldown machine I could barely do one underhand grip bodyweight pulldown when I knew I could do 5 chin-ups at that time. I'm sure the reason isn't because these "bodyweight" pull-ups do not include the weight of the forearms and hands because the weight of both hands and forearms do not account for much of the bodyweight (maybe only 5-10%).

Progressing with the lat pulldown machine should definitely help increase strength or reps for the pull-ups, but I think you should stick with your pull-ups since you can already do 5-7 pull-ups and continuing with those should increase reps over time. Do a couple sets every day or 3 times a week or whatever works for your body. If your still stagnating, then maybe try weighted pull-ups where you can only do 1-4 reps before failure for a time and then switch back to bodyweight pull-ups to test if your reps have increased. Try mixing up your pulling workouts with rowing exercises as well. I've never stagnated at this rep range before so these are all just guesses that might help you. Someone else here may give you better tips.

As for your question about passing the bar below mid chest, I think you are doing a muscle up transition after the pulldown because a full ROM pulldown/pull-up is where the bar reaches the mid chest and not at or below the nipples. So yes that engages different muscles which will be the triceps and so that's maybe why you feel discomfort in your elbows because muscle-up transitions heavily stress the triceps tendon and outer elbow.

Pull ups activate your core musculature more, and this allows the other muscles to work harder.

The bar is good for practicing muscle up transition, but you have to make sure you don't let the shoulders roll forward. Take your time, this is a long term goal to perform with near full bodyweight.

If you stop doing pull ups you will lose strength. Just use the lat machine as assistance work.

The counterbalancing effect is why the lat pulldown is harder lb for lb. It becomes apparent when you start exceeding your bodyweight, and you are forced to be strapped down in some manner. This is never an issue with weighted chins/pulls.

Speaking of pull-down stations at one point I came across a Life Fitness pull down station that instead of having you seated you were standing and it anchored your feet. Nice thing to try on these is to take the entire stack and as you/ after you pull down pull your feet up and get full abdominal activation with the elbows to the knees.

seiyafan said:

The other day I was playing with the lat pulldown machine and I finally realized why my pull-ups are still weak. Before I would never touch a machine because I figured if you can do 5-7 pull-ups a set for a couple of sets why bother with the machine. So I put my body weight (160lb) on the machine and only managed to pull about my eye level (not even chin level). Then I thought to myself what's gonna be heaviest weight I can pull down to my nipple line, to my surprise I could only do 120lb max for one rep. Well, that explains it a lot, right? I even tried to pull the bar all the way down to my thigh and for that I would need half of my body weight to do it.

So the lesson is I will be spending the next couple of weeks if not months to try to pull the bar to my nipple line with my body weight to make my pull-ups more solid. What do you think guys?

Another question is once the bar passes the mid chest level, are different muscle groups being engaged? Because one time I felt a slight discomfort in my elbow with only 120 lb. I had never had any elbow issues doing pull-ups.

The most glaring thing is that your pull up volume is way too low. Coach's athletes will pump out muscle ups or rope climbs just for warm-up. So it's hugely important to get dips and pull ups to be second nature. There are some great things you can do with the bar (Poliquin has a great back-building circuit), but as Josh said it should be more assistance work. You'll benefit more by building volume with pull ups as part of your daily warmup.

Cory Fair said:

... The most glaring thing is that your pull up volume is way too low ... Coach's athletes will pump out muscle ups or rope climbs just for warm-up ... it's hugely important to get dips and pull ups to be second nature ... as Josh said it should be more assistance work ... You'll benefit more by building volume with pull ups as part of your daily warmup.

Excellent point.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Hmm, thank you for the information, Cory! So you would suggest to kind of "grease the groove" with pullups, doing them for warm-up with easy sets and not near to failure, while slowly making the volume bigger?

Uzeeh said:

Hmm, thank you for the information, Cory! So you would suggest to kind of "grease the groove" with pullups, doing them for warm-up with easy sets and not near to failure, while slowly making the volume bigger?

Easy is a waste of time. I'd say to push your envelope by 20% each of the four workout days when you include these as supersets with no rest. Done correctly, you will feel energized. Form and maximal contraction are vital here.

What do you mean by "push the envelope by 20%"? Sorry, my English is not good Do you mean to increase volume?

Push yourself just a little more than you think you're capable of.

you are right, I have not pushed myself hard enough on this.

Make it challenging to do but not difficult...there is a difference. Challenging being that you can complete it with effort, difficult being you might fail....avoid the latter 90+% of the time.

Nic Branson said:

Make it challenging to do but not difficult...there is a difference. Challenging being that you can complete it with effort, difficult being you might fail....avoid the latter 90+% of the time.

Much more clear explanation of what I was trying to say. Thanks, Nic.

Anytime

One other thing. I often like to add in something like this as one set during the rest breaks. Be surprised how fast the volume builds...

Another thing I forgot to mention, I gained 20 pounds in the last three months.

ding ding ding....we have a big reason for decrease on pull up performance. Gotta keep up with them during the process or they will lag behind and need to be caught up in most cases.

Actually, Nic, I did that one-set-during-breaks thing accidentally today. I was supposed to do the thing Cory mentioned, doing them in the warm-up, but I totally forgot, so I did my all box squat sets before I remembered again. At that, I started doing sets of fits chest-to-bar slow deadhang chin-ups between each set of the other exercises today (push press and cleans, my wrist injury is keeping me away from gymnastics). It felt really surprisingly easy, even though the sets themselves were quite hard (with the style I did them today, my max would have been about seven, and that's with the last one really jerking). And even better than that was how good I felt afterwards! I did 8 sets of 5 chin-ups, and I feel like I want to do some more now. Really energizing.

So, thank you, both Nic and Cory! I will definitely keep going like this.

dnj23 said:

The counterbalancing effect is why the lat pulldown is harder lb for lb. It becomes apparent when you start exceeding your bodyweight, and you are forced to be strapped down in some manner. This is never an issue with weighted chins/pulls.

That's true also, good point. I have to say though, I was always able to do as many or more reps of heavy lat pulldowns at any given bw+ load. I just remember getting tired in the hip flexors, it sucks to have to hold yourself down and having to move so that the cable doesn't mark up your face at the same time. Always liked weighted pull ups more, felt like I could work my muscles better and I didn't have all that lat pulldown hassle you mentioned!

Lately I added deadlift and barbell row to my routine, so I am cutting back on pull ups.

Another reason added.

I am sorry for all the excuse.