For Erik regarding scapula winging and HSPU

Are they actually winging or are you just so lean that you see the border of the scapulae when you move?

Erik, this is the full reply to your question. Because of the more specific nature of the progression, the bold+underlined part of this needs to stay within the Graduate Studies area.

If winging is the issue, you're going to want to work on serratus anterior. Elbow plank push ups, with the elbows literally under the shoulders, are a great way to keep these specific to serratus. It's like a scapular push up that removes the elbow joint from the equation, forcing 100% of the movement to be in the scapular and thus serratus has to do 100% of the work.

There is some straight arm dumbbell work I have been making up that seems to help this a lot as well.

Overall, if you have proper push up form then the scapula should be moving well and sticking nicely to the rib cage. This all starts with proper hollow body hold => elbow plank with hollow body (as described above)=>scapular elbow plank push ups with hollow body (as described above) => straight arm plank with hollow body => straight arm plank push ups with hollow body (scapular push ups), full push ups with hollow body. Chances are very high that if you have proper elbow plank push ups with a hollow body then the next few steps will be easy to achieve.

There is no sense in trying to add extra joint movement to the shoulder if the scapula isn't even moving properly, which is why I have decided to just work on elbow plank push ups for a while... my right side doesn't work correctly yet and thus I am not ready for push ups. This is a valuable insight I have had recently.

Joshua Naterman said:

Are they actually winging or are you just so lean that you see the border of the scapulae when you move?

That's a question that's been bugging me for some time. I believe at first they were winging, but I think I've fixed the biggest part of that problem since the bottoms don't stick out anymore and my shoulders aren't quite as...loose, as they once were. But in the motions I mentioned (pushup/planche and handstand(pushups)) the tops of the scapula stick out. I don't like it, it's not proper form, and while I "think" it's got to do with my trapezius, I'm not certain. Went back to adv. frogstand and PL leans to try and keep perfect form. Not really worried about my wrists or elbows in that respect.

Joshua Naterman said:

Erik, this is the full reply to your question. Because of the more specific nature of the progression, the bold+underlined part of this needs to stay within the Graduate Studies area.

If winging is the issue, you're going to want to work on serratus anterior. Elbow plank push ups, with the elbows literally under the shoulders, are a great way to keep these specific to serratus. It's like a scapular push up that removes the elbow joint from the equation, forcing 100% of the movement to be in the scapular and thus serratus has to do 100% of the work.

I read the post you wrote a couple days ago regarding this exercise, and I must say I like it. Since last seminar, I've been working various scapular pushup variations, be they one armed, elevated, or weighted. Fixed the lower part of the scapula, at any rate.

Joshua Naterman said:

There is some straight arm dumbbell work I have been making up that seems to help this a lot as well.

Overall, if you have proper push up form then the scapula should be moving well and sticking nicely to the rib cage. This all starts with proper hollow body hold => elbow plank with hollow body (as described above)=>scapular elbow plank push ups with hollow body (as described above) => straight arm plank with hollow body => straight arm plank push ups with hollow body (scapular push ups), full push ups with hollow body. Chances are very high that if you have proper elbow plank push ups with a hollow body then the next few steps will be easy to achieve.

The microprogressions in the progressions are extremely helpful, thanks for elaborating. It's been difficult to tell whether the scapula have been "sticking" to the rib cage in this motion. Once again, it's just the tops of them that are the issue (at least it seems that way). What appears to happen is they follow the ribs, but aren't "tight" to it. Oddly enough, if I start in a completely pronated position, I can press up to a headstand with proper form.

Joshua Naterman said:

There is no sense in trying to add extra joint movement to the shoulder if the scapula isn't even moving properly, which is why I have decided to just work on elbow plank push ups for a while... my right side doesn't work correctly yet and thus I am not ready for push ups. This is a valuable insight I have had recently.

Certain movements work for me, and others do not. The HSPU is definitely the worst offender (or at least the most frustrating), but I'm not sure that just working basic maintenance in the first progression is hindering me...I hope I've given some useful information regarding my particular predicament. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain these exercises and progressions, and look forward to (hopefully) talking to you again in May!

I am quite sure I will be there

I would really like to see a video of what you are concerned by, that would help a lot.

One thing I have been doing that helps a lot is to do every single exercise I do in a hollow position with retracted scaps, specifically bicep curls and bicep curls to shoulder press with the palms facing me. Aside from essentially being a very controlled reverse muscle up when performed with a hollow body, this really challenges my scapular musculature and ability to control my shoulders. I can now do 5 slow reps with 35 lbs, which is still pretty tough for me. This challenges the long head of the biceps as well as the traps, particularly middle and upper. This sort of thing might really help you since the upper area seems to be an issue, but I don't know for sure.

I allow elevation and depression now, as appropriate to each exercise, but I tend to maintain the retraction. At first I just held a static retraction because I simply had no control if I allowed the scaps to move.

I also do this with lateral raises, which is incredibly hard. I do very, very slow contractions on the way up. 10-15 seconds, and then I often go back down at the same pace. 1 set is 2-3 reps, depending on pace. Doing this with 15 pounds is my upper limit right now for 1 rep. I have found that this has enhanced my general strength all around, as has all the scapular drills I do.

My scapula drills currently include bent over HS body position unilateral "I (capital i)" lifts, bent over bilateral Y, and bent over bilateral shoulder W. By bent over I am literally lying on my thighs, with my back straight and my neck packed. That is for the Y and W... the I exercise I perform by bracing myself at the edge of a doorway or corner so that my lifting hand is free to lift, with my bracing hand being as close to a fully open shoulder position as I can achieve currently. I am constantly trying to actively open the shoulder of the supporting hand while I am lifting the free hand into a handstand position (with locked elbows in both arms of course) and this all by itself is a pretty good workout. This makes me sweat every time.

My other scapula drills are a series of straight arm shrugs lying supine on a bench. They are getting progressively more complex as everything stabilizes slowly. I started off in a planche arm position, maintaining shoulder angle while retracting and protracting with depression and elevation. I use 15 lbs per arm currently. Started with 5, quickly moved to 10 and stayed there for a month. 15 is where I belong for a while. I eventually started doing this with maltese as well, which is quite different. Then I did this for back lever. Now I move smoothly from BL => PL doing a scapular shrug every few inches of motion, up and down. This is fairly taxing in an odd way... it becomes harder to maintain shoulder stability as the set goes on, and this is improving from week to week. After 1-2 sets of that I will stay protracted and depressed, moving from BL =>ML=>PL and back. After that I will stay retracted and depressed and do the same thing. Not full depression really, just coactivation of upper and lower traps. Hard to describe.

I now do that at all degrees of shoulder abduction, starting at arms near the sides and moving through ML to IC (90 degrees abduction) and recently all the way up to handstand and back. I will start outlining the entire hemisphere of movement available this week, which should be interesting and tiring.

I am finding that this is making a lot of positive differences for my shoulder as well as overall scapular motion and strength, so perhaps it will help you.

My focus is on identifying the progressively more fundamental components of the movements we do and developing progressive approaches to correcting dysfunctional movement in these areas, building strength and endurance in them, and then layering more complex stages of movement on top of correctly executed fundamental movements.

I have stated publicly that rehab is actually correct strength training in disguise, and this is what I actually mean by that statement.

I am doing similar things for prone scapular movement, which is a bit more of a challenge for me. Much of this works just as well prone (with much less weight as you become more horizontally abducted) so feel free to experiment. Fundamentals don't change, that's why they are fundamentals.

I'm going to try and compile a list of everything suggested here and implement it into my workouts.

I'll try and make another video of my problem area soon, probably this weekend. Thanks again for everything, and hopefully this dang thing will get under control soon.

In addition to all the excellent advice above, if you have some bands or better yet a chest expander, the straight arm strand pulls were very helpful for me in strengthening my scaps.

I personally prefer them to the L Y W type exercises.

Cole Dano said:

In addition to all the excellent advice above, if you have some bands or better yet a chest expander, the straight arm strand pulls were very helpful for me in strengthening my scaps.

I personally prefer them to the L Y W type exercises.

They... are different, and effective in a different way You really kind of need both to really get your scaps working properly. It is amazing how much shoulder prep work is beneficial... Still surprises me.

I think that, eventually, shoulder prep has to be 5-7 days per week, rotating between modalities each day to get the full benefits. If you remember the original set of shoulder prep exercises that Coach taught us, that is more or less what his guys did.

Totally agree, I have little doubt that variety is very important with the prehab work. There is no one best thing for many reasons.

Some weeks i'll do strands, some with weights, or shrugs, the routines that are shown in the seminar etc.

I think the only thing I do every day is swinging the clubs, but it's mostly because I get a kick out of it.

Now back to the chest expanders, for whatever reason, I haven't found a tool that helped me get as in touch with my scapula. There is something about the linearity of the line of pull, and the non-linearity of the pull strength that seems to just make the scapula suck onto the back. This is why I like them for winging.

Overhead downward pull. two arm front chest pull, shoulder shimmy, and one i really like for the serratus is to do a back press and then bring the arms forward so the knuckle face straight ahead and then really flare the scapula. You can also do this like a scap push up.

Joshua Naterman said:

I think that, eventually, shoulder prep has to be 5-7 days per week, rotating between modalities each day to get the full benefits. If you remember the original set of shoulder prep exercises that Coach taught us, that is more or less what his guys did.

I've been doing the scapula series, straight bar prehab and Dillon's band work since the seminar, but it hasn't really helped that specific area. Everywhere else is fine, but it's just that one that's been bugging me.

Cole Dano said:

In addition to all the excellent advice above, if you have some bands or better yet a chest expander, the straight arm strand pulls were very helpful for me in strengthening my scaps.

I personally prefer them to the L Y W type exercises.

I used to do these when I first started out, so I'll have to start doing them again, see what happens.

I enjoyed reading this discussion on strengthening the scapula and the 'winging' effect. Which i get at as well.

I was wondering in terms of fixing this issue and as general prehab for the shoulder if its best to start building endurance in the exercises first and then building strength?

I.e should you build up with sets of 15 reps for a reasonable period of time before moving to more strength orientated? or does it not matter?

Currently i do these exercises. A, B and C. each on their own day then start again. 5 - 6 times a week. I have begun with just 1 set of 10 reps on each exercise. I have done this for only 1 week so far and the poundages are very very light for the most part. I try to do the motions very slowly 313 temp or slower. (also in the mornings i do IDO's two shoulder routines with the band)

A

Front DB Shrugs

Pull Overs

DB Flys

Push Ups

B

Seated Row

Handstand shrugs

Seated Bent over Raise

Overhead Squat (just a 20kg bar)

Behind the back dumbbell raise

Push Ups

C

Inverted Hang Shrug

Front Raise

45 degree Front Raise

Face Pulls

Push Ups