Prison Pushup in Convict Conditioning

Hello, This is not an advertisement, I just want opinions regarding a certain form of push-up

The new Convict Conditioning Push-up DVD came out and the highly debated Prison Push-up (Basically a feet-together one arm push-up) has been revealed to be this:

Do you guys believe this feet together one arm pushup with a bend at the hips is useful? Does it build a good amount of strength?

How does it fare in terms of difficulty with planche push-ups.

Also a personal question to Josh Naterman:

How much can you Bench Press (preferably 1RM)? Can you do this (shown in the link above) style of One-arm push-up?

It is similar from what I can see to Al's at the end of this video.

That type of one arm push up is extremely hard. I have never in person seen one done straight. Al does his with some hip bend but also very little bracing as his arm is turned and rest behind him. I think this is a step in training to do one completely straight with elbow in. Though I would mix it with feet a part enough to straighten the body out also.

EDIT: Also the bench is going to have very little carry over to the body control needed to perform this.

Nic Branson said:

It is similar from what I can see to Al's at the end of this video.

That type of one arm push up is extremely hard. I have never in person seen one done straight. Al does his with some hip bend but also very little bracing as his arm is turned and rest behind him. I think this is a step in training to do one completely straight with elbow in. Though I would mix it with feet a part enough to straighten the body out also.

EDIT: Also the bench is going to have very little carry over to the body control needed to perform this.

Thanks for the quick reply,

Al Kavadlo's version is the same as the one presented in the Convict Conditioning Push-up DVD. John DuCane answered on the forum (via an email from Paul Wade) stating a hip bend it perfectly acceptable, however it is different from the one-arm pushup he presented in the book.

I am inquiring about the bench press because I want to know if this type of push-up carries over to the bench press. Paul Wade stated in the CC Super FAQ that he used to impress other inmates by benching 315lbs fairly easily for multiple reps because he mastered the one-arm pushup with feet together. Although I'm not sure if just mastering the one-arm push-up with a hip bend would entail to that (the benching of 3 plates on each side).

I personally don't train the bench press, I just use it to impress fools that think bench press is the only thing test of strength. However I want to know if this type of push-up (feet together, with a hip bend) will produce higher poundages on the bench press. (although bench pressing 3 plates is kind of cool, makes me think of the old school football players training in a rusty gym)

Also how much harder is the full-lay planche push-up compared to a feet-together one-arm pushup and a feet-together one-arm pushup with a hip bend? Any thoughts?

The hip bend imo is a step towards trying to make it straight which is just stupid difficult but should be the ultimate goal.

The carry over to the bench would be higher then the other way around. You would only need to get used to the different loading pattern and weight distribution but practice a bit and your bench would have gone up. How much is very individual. 315 errmm what's the bodyweight of the person who can do the one arm push up?

Full Planche Push Up is a beast in its own right, but apples to oranges from the one-arm push ups. The recruitment patterns and loading are completely different.

Nic Branson said:

The hip bend imo is a step towards trying to make it straight which is just stupid difficult but should be the ultimate goal.

The carry over to the bench would be higher then the other way around. You would only need to get used to the different loading pattern and weight distribution but practice a bit and your bench would have gone up. How much is very individual. 315 errmm what's the bodyweight of the person who can do the one arm push up?

Full Planche Push Up is a beast in its own right, but apples to oranges from the one-arm push ups. The recruitment patterns and loading are completely different.

Again thanks for the quick reply,

You're right, the feet-together one-arm pushup with no hip bend is hard as hell. It's like a one arm close grip press with 60-70% of your bodyweight. Almost all loading is on the triceps and anterior deltoids with minimal chest.

Paul Wade is around 210-220lbs I believe, from an interview I read regarding him. So I guess if he weighed 220 (to be generous) then he would press approximately 150~ pounds each arm when doing the one-arm pushup assuming he is pushing 70% of his bodyweight. He should be able to bench press 300~ lbs in theory. Don't know if my theory sounds right.

An off-topic question for you Mr.Branson:

What are your thoughts on posterior deltoid balance? I am following Convict Conditioning and the only upper-body pull is has it the progressions toward a one-arm pullup. Would being able to do one-arm pullups guarantee posterior deltoid balance (basically shoulder balance)? Is a horizontal pull really necessary?

In theory if you're doing the progression properly where you pull your shoulder down into the socket and your scaps are back and depressed then your posterior delts are also getting hammered. Personally I would toss in some hanging shrugs at the end of the pull ups and maybe some band pull work if you're concerned. The band pulling could be a warm-up, you're really more concerned with proper activation and movement capacity in various planes.

About the bench theory, it's all relative. If he knows how to bench well then at that weight he would have good carryover. If you take someone who has NEVER benched before then well....not so much.

Someone started a thread on CC a long time ago

Is that side bent feet together OAPU impressive. You bet it is!

Is it what the book describes - no.

My take on CC (and if you disagree i mean no offense, seriously) it's a reasonable program for - beginners to intermediates. Largely because the Master steps are all over the place. And I would like to think that as a person gets into the step 7-8 region they would have found their own intelligence and essentially the book would no longer be needed.

I seriously do question the questionable Master Steps, you know the one mentioned here and the OAHSPU. And I think the book is a bit over stylized in approach. However, it's very hard to avoid that with any kind of progressive programing.

DD did a great job of turning lemons into lemonade. With Paul not wanting to go public, they were able to cast even more marketing mystique around the product.

And they are really milking it for all it's worth. $80 for a 60 minute push up DVD? And there will be one for each step!?

Being a guy who doesn't like much nonsense (30 years of yoga have made me very allergic to any form of BS) I will always appreciate Coach Sommer's restrained approach. Having seen a small portion of what's coming down the pike I don't believe there will be a better program when it's out there.

One thing I do highly appreciate about DD in general is there belief that form comes first, and they really do have some outstanding teaching techniques. I'm sure even the PU DVD has some great stuff, it's just out of my budget.

To answer the question from OP, I don't bench anymore. I havent done any horizontal pressing, other than the occasional set of regular push ups for 5-10 reps, in almost a year now I think. Just started doing some bodyweight dips again as well, also sporadically. Maybe 1x per week.

I played around with 225 a few weeks ago and after 2 reps it didn't feel good, but I felt as though I had 11-12 reps in me if there were no shoulder issues. This translates to 16-18 reps or more after a month of acclimation to the exercise. That would give a theoretical max of 300-310 lbs or so currently. With acclimation that would change to 330-350. I can say from prior experience that it would be about 335 after re-acclimating.

Personally, as of today I probably wouldn't get more than 275 because my body is not efficient at all with benching anymore. It feels foreign.

So, I can do one, and I mean 1 rep, barely, of a braced one arm push up on each arm with feet slightly wider than shoulder width and very little side bend. If I could do sets of 12-20 reps of this I would scare the hell out of myself. Seriously. I mean nice controlled reps.

I have briefly played with this sort of thing and I think you are much, much better off with a straight body and little to no side bend while keeping the legs farther apart. As you get stronger every few months, bring the feet a little closer together. I do not think it is possible to do these perfectly straight with the feet less than shoulder width, at least for heavy guys... maybe the really small ones can, like 130 and under, but who knows... that's all theory and guess work at this point. Just doing them as I described is ridiculously hard, I can't even quite my spine motionless so with truly perfect form my rep count is technically zero.

Do you guys know how much someone would be able to bench relative to their bodyweight if they could do one of these on each arm?

Apples and Oranges again.

B1214N said:

Do you guys know how much someone would be able to bench relative to their bodyweight if they could do one of these on each arm?

Do you know how many alligators you can balance on your head if you are able to do a freestanding headstand?

I'm sure there has to be some sort of correlation between the two in the pressing component, just not from the body tension of the one arm push-up. The same muscle groups are used to press between the two and in a horizontal plane with arms by the side.

Do you understand the neurological differences between the two movements? The difference in coordination, control, firing order, etc....the differences are much more then they look like on the surface.

B1214N said:

I'm sure there has to be some sort of correlation between the two in the pressing component, just not from the body tension of the one arm push-up. The same muscle groups are used to press between the two and in a horizontal plane with arms by the side.

My friend, you need to stop thinking about this and just train. Train both, if you want, there will almost certainly be some carryover between the two.

Have you trained one arm push ups like these? Have you benched? If you've done both you will realize how different they are and why there will be a massively superior carryover from the push up to the bench versus the other way around.

No amount of words can properly convey this understanding to you, so it is time for you to experiment on your own and learn that way.

I'm about 175 lbs. Last time I fooled around with bench I put up about 300 lbs (yes that's more than my squat :oops: ) and last time I checked, I could do a one arm push up. These aren't really movements I do regularly though.

Thank you gentlemen for the great feedback and comments,

Would you guys say it is worth pursuing this exercise? Would this feet-together one arm push-up with a hip bend entail to great strength gains?

An off-topic question here:

Do one-arm chin-ups (supinated grip) work the posterior deltoids well? What about a pronated grip OAC? Which OAC grip is better for posterior deltoid development? Is OAC work enough to keep the posterior deltoids in balance?

Joshua Naterman said:

B1214N said:

I'm sure there has to be some sort of correlation between the two in the pressing component, just not from the body tension of the one arm push-up. The same muscle groups are used to press between the two and in a horizontal plane with arms by the side.

My friend, you need to stop thinking about this and just train. Train both, if you want, there will almost certainly be some carryover between the two.

Have you trained one arm push ups like these? Have you benched? If you've done both you will realize how different they are and why there will be a massively superior carryover from the push up to the bench versus the other way around.

No amount of words can properly convey this understanding to you, so it is time for you to experiment on your own and learn that way.

Oh it was just purely my curiosity to find out if there is a way to estimate how many times bodyweight a person can bench press if they have the pressing strength alone to do one of these on each arm and assuming the person has the neurological control to stabilize the bar in a bench press. I have heard that a planche equates approximately to 2x bodyweight bench press and so I thought this could be estimated as well and yes I do agree that one arm push-ups have more carryover to bench press than the reverse. Yes, I have bench pressed before and done one armed push-ups with wide straddle before and negatives with a narrower straddle before, but I don't do those anymore. I do plan to train for this in the future, but not anytime soon.

CalisthenicGod said:

Thank you gentlemen for the great feedback and comments,

Would you guys say it is worth pursuing this exercise? Would this feet-together one arm push-up with a hip bend entail to great strength gains?

An off-topic question here:

Do one-arm chin-ups (supinated grip) work the posterior deltoids well? What about a pronated grip OAC? Which OAC grip is better for posterior deltoid development? Is OAC work enough to keep the posterior deltoids in balance?

It would definitely entail to great strength gains for anterior pressing as well as the body control needed for this. It is more than just a party trick to impress people and Joshua mentions that there is massive transfer in strength to the bench press as well.

As for the OACs, I know both pronated and supinated both work the posterior deltoid to some extent, but the lats should be the one getting the most work in both. I don't know which grip is better for posterior delt work, but I think they would be about the same, possibly the pronated grip one would get very slightly more because you are using less elbow flexor strength overall in the movement (so less assist) as opposed to the supinated grip one. That's my take on it. I'm not sure if OACs are enough to keep the posterior delts in balance, it partly depends on how much your working the anterior delts to find out and you can do bent-over dumbbell flys and Bulgarian rows to isolate more of the rear delts. I also heard that manna work and victorian work can balance it too.

CalisthenicGod said:

Thank you gentlemen for the great feedback and comments,

Would you guys say it is worth pursuing this exercise? Would this feet-together one arm push-up with a hip bend entail to great strength gains?

An off-topic question here:

Do one-arm chin-ups (supinated grip) work the posterior deltoids well? What about a pronated grip OAC? Which OAC grip is better for posterior deltoid development? Is OAC work enough to keep the posterior deltoids in balance?

The OAC work will do a number on the posterior delts if you make sure you do the lift properly and pull the shoulder blade down and back to set it and keep it there. I would at least do hanging shrugs afterwards as well. Now if you want to pursue the one arm push up also then you need to work on pulling them back in the horizontal plane. Bulgarian Rows are great, just make sure you do them properly. Start with bands if bodyweight is too much. As for the OAC grip, pick which is better for you. Most people find supinated easier but you never know until you train it yourself. Make sure you can hang and set the shoulder with one arm though first.

Movement Capacity---->Stability Capacity---->Strength Capacity.

It would be interesting to hear Coach's thoughts on this particular exercise and its value in building strength :wink:

It would be interesting to hear Coach's thoughts on this particular exercise and its value in building strength :wink:

Regarding the one arm pushup? I think its primary value is as a prehab element for isolating the serratus.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Hahahaha

I loved coach's answer.

Coach Sommer said:

It would be interesting to hear Coach's thoughts on this particular exercise and its value in building strength :wink:

Regarding the one arm pushup? I think its primary value is as a prehab element for isolating the serratus.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Haha well for us mere mortals I'm sure the OAP has more value than that?

I'm talking about the feet together one-arm push-up with a lateral hip bend. Is it useful in building pressing strength? How does it compare to the planche and planche push-ups?

What are your thoughts coach?

CalisthenicGod said:

Coach Sommer said:

It would be interesting to hear Coach's thoughts on this particular exercise and its value in building strength :wink:

Regarding the one arm pushup? I think its primary value is as a prehab element for isolating the serratus.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Haha well for us mere mortals I'm sure the OAP has more value than that?

I'm talking about the feet together one-arm push-up with a lateral hip bend. Is it useful in building pressing strength? How does it compare to the planche and planche push-ups?

What are your thoughts coach?

I doubt you are getting a reply, because the fact is that it has very little direct carryover to gymnastics that other exercises can not cover. The biggest part of a one arm push up that has value to a gymnast is the serratus anterior activation and overall scapular control that is required to perform one correctly. Of course, proper gymnastics training in general covers all of this fairly well, so you can perhaps see why they are of somewhat limited value.

Now, having said that: If you are giving yourself enough assistance with the off hand to keep a properly rigid hollow body then OAP could certainly help you by requiring so much body tension (and the fact that this tension is not the same on both sides of the body, which is somewhat unique). This would really just be a fun conditioning element that would be more in the prehab category than anywhere else, just like Coach said. Yes, you will build a lot of strength, but you will have the strength to learn OAP fairly easily if you pursue BtGB and build up from the basics. If you spend the time on OAP primarily instead, you will perhaps get one slightly faster but you will have much less overall ability to show for it. There's no wrong way to go, but I prefer to have lots of different abilities.