Squatting Form - Feet forward or Rotated Out

Kelly Starrett is always saying that you should keep your feet pointed forwards while squatting, but this feels a bit uncomfortable and I have to push my knees out quite a bit. I do it the way he recommends, but I'm curious to hear your opinions on it.

Kelly discusses it here: http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/05/epis ... ntion.html

"Feet should be as straight at possible to generate as much torque as possible. The knee can be completely safe and effective with somewhere between 3-7 degrees of foot turn out."

However, this Chinese lifter has a bit more than 7 degrees of turn I think.

Example:

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Some of the chinese lifters use excessive turnout as a modification to the way they lift the bar off the floor. It allows them to get the knees out of the way a bit.

When KStar came out with that video, last year I think, it caused a huge ration of argument around a lot of places. It was there at PerformanceMenu and probably on the CF board and probably other forums as well. No idea really about them.

I'll be honest when I say a lot of the details here went over my head. He talks about landing from impact and generating force- does this also apply to back squats?

I've been under the impression that I need to have my feet somewhere turned out so that I can open my hips. In another video Kelly says to imagine your legs like a spring and push them out at the bottom of a squat. That's a lot easier to do with the feet turned out a little

Add that opinion to the thousands of other opinions about how to squat. I don't think there will ever be agreement on 'the' way to squat or there need be. For a seemingly simple movement, it's very interesting to note how many ways there are to do it.

If you are a beginner, i like Rippetoe's Starting Strength for it's clarity if nothing else. But start with a commonly accepted form get comfortable with that and let your experience help you figure out the mods you need to make to it for you. Stay clear of these controversies they won't help make you stronger.

Well in landings you want everyting to be in alignment. It's just asking for trouble when it isn't.

For general squatting, I don't think it's as much of an issue as when it's done say from an athletics landing or an Olympic Lift.

Kelly also deals with athletes a lot and ball sports so it probably gets into play more there.

That is one thing about Rip's method. It uses science to really lay it out.

I admit i didn't watch the video, Starrett is so hyper it's hard for me to take.

Sure if one wants to work on landing specific squatting then feet forward is the way to go.

But toes turned out is not wrong alignment for squatting in general if that's what you are saying. It's different alignment is all. the main thing with squatting alignment is that the upper leg and foot are both working in the same direction. In other words (though not as accurate) femur bone and toes point the same way. That can be forward a little out or even a lot out. As long as feet and legs are connecting it's ok alignment wise.

DannyCE said:

Barring any dysfunction, let your body find what's natural for you.

A nice idea but a pretty big exception; a very similar test is used to find structural imbalances in the lower body.

kstar is extremely knowledgeable so this is a tough call.

Feet straight is correct for torque generation as he says. I allow up to 15 degree turnout, mostly for individuals with movement dysfunction or injury. Usually even a turn to 7-10 will alleviate most issues, do not use foot turn out as a mechanism to excuse poor flexibility in calves, hips, or back. Some lifters like the Chinese lifter are just not comfortable with their feet straight. These are exceptions, if your form is spot on and everything looks good, you feel good and under heavy weights I see no problem then I allow it. You hit a rock bottom 500lbs squat with some extra foot turnout then so be it.

This is for raw lifting, adding single ply changes things a bit.

I would argue that it does depend a little on what you want it for, but for olympic lifting i would definitely have a slight turn out as pretty much everyone catches their clean or snatch with feet turned out and so you want to be strongest in the position your going to be competing in. I guess the same logic could be applied to other sports as a more neutral foot position may cross over more to the sport performance. Tho I've heard John Broz say he does not care what foot position they use just whatever yields the biggest squat.

Ok, having looked at the video, Zhang's feet are between 15-30 degrees. Honestly, not a big deal.

You'll actually see some more turnout by some chinese lifters as they pull off the floor, that's initially what I was talking about.

Some Chinese lifters use what is often called a frog stance. Their feet are very turned out. Also note catching your lift is not the same as performing the squat from the rack. Typically the variance in weight between what they can squat versus what they clean becomes quite large. Zhang is a beast 197.5kg C+J at 69kg. He's also a squat jerker.

Does anyone know if sprinters squat with their feet forward or rotated out?

we're probably making a bigger deal out of this than we should. Personally I've been squatting feet slightly out since the beginning of my squatting history (but believe me I'm no expert) and havent been injured or anything.

I tested yesterday and I am much stronger with my feet pointing mostly forward but a few degrees out and just push my knees out a lot. My knees fall in if I don't my feet mostly forward.

Oh and does anyone know if you should squat with your knees behind your toes? I think it is because you would recruit more glutes than quads if your knees don't go past your toes which is the reason for that.

If I don't turn my feet a bit, it puts too much stress on the knees. Either that, or I'm forced to exaggerate hip movement. Feels unnatural.

Knees forward or back will depend on the squat you are doing, low bar squat will keep the knees back the whole lift while high bar the knees will go forward, over the toe (not beyond in most cases). In any case the lifting force comes from getting into the heels not from the toes.

70s Big did a good write up on toe angle while squatting. You can read it here http://www.70sbig.com/blog/2012/03/hip-torque-toe-angle-and-squatting/

Cole Dano said:

Add that opinion to the thousands of other opinions about how to squat. I don't think there will ever be agreement on 'the' way to squat or there need be. For a seemingly simple movement, it's very interesting to note how many ways there are to do it.

However, I will point out that the FMS test for a functional squat (note: this is NOT the same pattern as any weighted squat) has feet pointed forward. This is pretty much the test.

If anyone is going to say "here's how you're supposed to squat", it will be Gray Cook

Yes and no. I've had this discussion with Gray.

When we do FMS testing we purposely put you in a disadvantageous position. That does not mean you should use that form with weight. The form you see is for testing ONLY. The hand position is also limited with the bar overhead. We're making it harder on purpose. It is a TEST not a lifting technique. Yes I am harping on this. None of the test should be used as a method to demonstrate proper lifting. Nothing is saying what your foot position should be when squatting with weight.

Edit. !!!!!

As an aside here. Gray prefers to focus on training the deadlift and "maintaining" the squat. The reasons are beyond the scope of this thread and Imdon't want to derail it too much here.

Foot placement is between the lifter and their coach. It is individual and specific to each person. No blanket rule can cover all of it.

For what it's worth, I've been experimenting a bit since the original post, and I've come to the conclusion that my stance was far too wide. I've narrowed it to my shoulder's width or a bit less and keep my feet pointing quite strictly forward with a bit of external rotation. My knees have been feeling very good, I feel stronger in the position, and it just feels so much more natural.

Nic Branson said:

That does not mean you should use that form with weight.

Yep, that's why I said this:

FMS test for a functional squat (note: this is NOT the same pattern as any weighted squat) has feet pointed forward.

I noticed Just nipping that line of thought off before it got anywhere. It's not the way we want FMS viewed or approached at all.