Why is pull up so hard to build?

I remember a few years ago I could only do something like 12 push ups at once, and max out at 20 pushups total. Upon seeing how pathetic I was I started to train myself and after one month I could do 100 pushups (5 sets, 20 reps each set with like 90 secs rest in between). I thought I could build pull ups like this but I was so wrong. There is a pull up assist machine in the gym that I started going to about 2 months ago (I go there 2-3 days a week). I first started with 55 lbs assist, then 40 lbs, then 25lb, each time I would do at least 4 sets with 6-10 reps each set. At 25 lbs I started adding a static hold on the top (for 3-5 seconds), I am now at 10 lbs and starts to struggle a bit (I can only do like 6-7 reps the first set, then 4-5 the second set, 3-4 the third set and so on), however I am still nowhere near a perfect 2 rep no assist pull up. Speaking of frustration, Is there anything wrong with my method of training or my body?

I also have a pull bar at home, I just want to hang on it and do two reps of perfect pull ups whenever I want. It's just not happening.

Well pull ups where my nemesis but lately it seems I grasped the point for increasing them (thanks to some posts here and finally doing what it´s written from the beggining). First a question: are you overweight? do you know (or can make an approximation) your body fat%?. If you are like 20% body fat , it means that you are trying to pull up with some extra 15-20 pounds with a body weight of 160 pounds. That is a lot for a begginer...

First you should try the slizzardman pull up template(it´s here somewhere I´ll look for it) once or twice a week (giving enough rest). You must take your max rep pull ups (let´s say 4 is your absolute max), then you divide by 2. So you have 2 pull ups, you take this two and make (or try) 10 sets. Yep 2X10, that makes a total of 20 pull ups. If you drop some (like 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1) it is ok, just remember your total (14 in this case), next time surely you will improve this total. Once you arrive to the perfect 2x10, keep that scheme for a week (2 or 3 workouts) just to let the body get used to that. Then go for 3x10, of course at the beginning you´ll fail probably even the total of 20, but the numbers will grow fast.

As an example I´ve been using this as a complement to the WODs since october and I have passed from a total of 14 (trying 2x10) to a total of 40 (just this week), so next week I´ll try 5x10. (my max has gone from 4 to 8 pull ups). The first 3 months I only could train like once a week due to lack of time, even then I was improving steadily.

I almost forget, try changing the exercises between pull up, chin up, wide pull up, narrow pull up, neutral pull up (or rope pull up), I rotate the exercises so I perform them twice each.

If you are unable to perform a single pull up, try it with body rows, just the same method, and once you are able to perform 3 or 4 pull ups change to pull ups.

In a standard pushup you are dealing with pushing roughly 55-65% of your Bodyweight.

When you are doing a pullup, you are nearly pulling your entire bodyweight.

A horizontal pullup/body row is more like a pushup than a pushup is like a pullup.

A dip or HSPU (full ROM) is more like a pullup. In a dip, your body gets tilted horizontally a bit which helps recruit musculature from the chest. You get more recruitment of the chest in the very bottom of a HSPU, even if it's hollow; but not nearly as much as a dip.

I think my body fat is somewhere around 8-10%. At 160 lbs I think I am pretty normal.

For dips I can do at least 30-40 of them (12 on the first set then 8 on the next for 5 sets), but for some reason pulling has always been harder for me than pushing.

You went up 45 pounds on pull-ups in two months. Thats pretty typical for a beginner you just started out weaker than your push exercises. You are probably starting to hit a plateau. To get through this you can just change your reps and sets. This will change the stress on your body and you will adapt again. Using Slizzardman's template is good. You could also go down in reps and sets and go up in weight (lower the assist). At 6-12 reps you are working mostly hypertrophy. I bet if you go down to 3-5 reps per set with a heavier load you will get your unassisted pull-ups faster.

Also if you can do one unassisted with very good form every time you can do that several times throughout the day. This is called greasing the groove and will build pull-ups very quickly.

A lot of coaches better than me have noted the pullup assist machine is like the pulldown machine or banded assist pullups.

It may get you a lot closer to the pullup but it's not the best option.

Where you are right now, I would focus on a blend of negatives.

From top, short hold (3s), negative to 90 degrees +/- 15/30 degrees and pull back to top. If you're strong enough, go lower than 90, but the farther you get down,

From a supinated grip, use a slight kip or jump to get past the bottom and pull as high as you could. If you can't pull any more than 30 degrees with this method, scrap it.

And work/try the supinated grip or neutral grip before the pronated grip.

Last time I tried it with supinated grip I was able to do 3-4 pullups unassisted, basically chin was at bar level at the top and the angle between forearm and upper arm was like 145 degrees at the bottom (can't do all the way with straight arms), it's the pronated grip that's been killing me. Do you think I should mixed supinated grip unassisted with pronated grip on the assist machine? I had been focusing too much on building my lats so I basically sticked with pronated grip all the past two months.

Supinated grip will allow you allow you accumulate more volume unassisted. Both build your lats its pretty much impossible to build a chin-up without building your pull-ups and vice versa.

Well, I'm just going to guess here but I take it you can't break out of the bottom of a deadhang while your hands are supinated?

Have you tried going hands a bit wider than the shoulder? I only say this because when I do them on my IronGym on the inner part of the bars I find them a bit harder than when I go outside of the neutral grips. Mind you, in general, my left elbow does not like me doing pronated grips so I rarely do them ever. It was just a bit easier with a wider than shoulder-width grip than closer than shoulder width grip.

Again, ditch the pullup assist machine and work a blend of negatives or partial ROM concentrics

Yep 10% is great, I hope to be there in a couple of months! .

Yeah, agree with Blairbob that you should move off of the gravitron and experience pulling and negatives with the required body control. I also liked a lot of Slizz's advice that you should keep the reps low and also change your grip. My added advice for the beginner is twofold:

- on the final rep of each set you should just hang for at least a couple of seconds, up to 5 possibly or the rep doesn't count. The negative control is important for building the required strength and too often you see people just drop (nearly throw themselves) off the bar on that final rep. I think they miss an opportunity to stretch out.

- try to not use the padded, grippy holds that you see on some of the pullup machines. While nice to hold I think that part of the pullup process is building a strong grip that can actually support your body weight. I think that the reason a lot of people cannot do a basic pullup is because, in reality, they lack the grip ability. A solid bar, taped or un-taped, works nicely. And if you're aiming for a bar muscle up ever then you will need a grip that you can rotate your wrists over.

In my experience, pullups are easier to build then dips. I skipped three progressions for the pullups in the book, and now I work SB wide L pullups once a week and assisted OAC pullups twice a week 8)

Grease the Groove! (copyright P. Tsatsouline) If ya have a pullup bar, just jump on it and do a pullup (the best you can do) when it comes into your mind. Do it every day. If you feel weak, then skip a day or two.

It worked for me at 280. I could do only one chinup (not full rom, bar at forehead). After two month I did 3 strict deadhang pullups. (I know you guys laugh, but i'm proud of it. )

Tensing your glutes and abs helps a lot.

Blairbob said:

Again, ditch the pullup assist machine and work a blend of negatives or partial ROM concentrics

This + iso holds at the top.

omegant also gave good advice on rep schemes

Lots of good information here. Something I've done in the past both for myself way back when and also for some clients was to do ONE rep between sets of other movements. Just one, be surprised how fast the volume adds up.

Last night, I did 5 sets of neutral grip at 3 reps each, all unassisted, up chin over the bar, down arms almost straight (170 degrees), so thank you all for your encouragement! I feel that I am start making progress.

seiyafan said:

I remember a few years ago I could only do something like 12 push ups at once, and max out at 20 pushups total. Upon seeing how pathetic I was I started to train myself and after one month I could do 100 pushups (5 sets, 20 reps each set with like 90 secs rest in between). I thought I could build pull ups like this but I was so wrong. There is a pull up assist machine in the gym that I started going to about 2 months ago (I go there 2-3 days a week). I first started with 55 lbs assist, then 40 lbs, then 25lb, each time I would do at least 4 sets with 6-10 reps each set. At 25 lbs I started adding a static hold on the top (for 3-5 seconds), I am now at 10 lbs and starts to struggle a bit (I can only do like 6-7 reps the first set, then 4-5 the second set, 3-4 the third set and so on), however I am still nowhere near a perfect 2 rep no assist pull up. Speaking of frustration, Is there anything wrong with my method of training or my body?

I also have a pull bar at home, I just want to hang on it and do two reps of perfect pull ups whenever I want. It's just not happening.

What you are going through is normal. Looks like you did a productive 2 month cycle on the pull up assist. Plateauing inevitably ensues. Try new things as others said. Strength gains come in cycles. Plus I would take note of your total bodyweight when doing this too if you haven't. If you don't know you're 10 lbs heavier after 2 months, that could be significant. lb for lb type exercises favor the lighter trainee.

I see. Well, I have gained almost 15 pounds since I started training myself in the last two months, maybe that explains 1% of the reason why I was not progressing, the other 99% is I haven't tortured my body hard enough. I believe for strength training how much you gain is directly related to how much you suffer in training.

Well, I have gained almost 15 pounds since I started training myself in the last two months

You might want to have posted that A LOT earlier.

I'm guessing the weight gain is a good thing and intended? Muscle and water gain?

seiyafan said:

I see. Well, I have gained almost 15 pounds since I started training myself in the last two months, maybe that explains 1% of the reason why I was not progressing, the other 99% is I haven't tortured my body hard enough. I believe for strength training how much you gain is directly related to how much you suffer in training.

No offense, but that's wrong.

Patrick Smith said:

seiyafan said:

I see. Well, I have gained almost 15 pounds since I started training myself in the last two months, maybe that explains 1% of the reason why I was not progressing, the other 99% is I haven't tortured my body hard enough. I believe for strength training how much you gain is directly related to how much you suffer in training.

No offense, but that's wrong.

I know, as someone who's approaching 30 I remember 10 or 15 years ago I could jump and run and do all kinds of sh*t all day and all it took was one night of rest to fully recover, but my body doesn't allow that anymore.

So I try to be young in my heart.

What do you all think of jumping into pull-ups?

I have a group of young athletes that can't do even one full pull-up. So I've been getting them to jump into a pull-up, concentrating on getting the chest to the bar, then tucking up the knees and lowering all the way. Some have progressed so that they can get their chest to the bar most of the time, so now they're hopping on one foot instead of jumping.

Is this a reasonable and time effective strategy?

Reading over this thread I realize I have to do more quality controll on getting a full extension at the end of each pull-up.

It's alright for when they are doing negatives. Jump and hold and lower.

When you say athletes, do you mean CrossFitters or some sort of athletic groups that you train?

Jumping into pullups will allow them to jump past breaking the lock off bottom, which tends to be quite hard for many beginners or those who are weaker.

I coach synchronized swimmers.

The pay-offs for having strength are great, but typically we end up concentrating on skills and routines to the detriment of everything else. This year I am taking a gamble and investing more practice time in physical preparation time, hoping that the increased capacity will pay off. In January the elite athletes started a modified Killroy plan, but now I'm including some elements in the general group. They *love* hollow hold,and actually love handstands, but pull-ups are a novel movement.

The thing is that when they are in the water, they extend their arms overhead and pull bodywards in a variety of ways, so all the skill elements that include this movement will benefit.

When other people post questions about how to start off from a basic level I pay a lot of attention.

Myself, I don't trust my joints enough to do jumping pull-ups as I add the complication of being a bit overweight on to weak, so I am woring on horizontal rows while the elimination of junk food and increased cardio take their course.

Have you tried inverted rows? I heard they are very good for progressing to pull ups/chins. You can increase the difficulty of the inverted rows by lowering your body or elevating your legs. I think it is even possible to build up to a one arm pull up by progressing with one arm inverted rows.