The Meat and Testosterone Connection by Charles Poliquin

ed x said:

While I do not agree with veganism can I just say thank you for posting some interesting vegan recipes, all I ever see (granted it's from RAW vegans) is like a fruit salad of oranges and watermelon and banana.......which isn't a damn recipe!

Raw veganism is certainly about as limited as one can get for a diet, and I've never really understood the point of raw foodism, but to each his own I guess. There are thousands upon thousands of awesome vegan recipes, and high-end cuisine as well, because even with two food groups eliminated there are still near endless food products and combinations that are vegan. Just requires thinking outside the box from our usual food culture. Years before I went vegan I definitely wondered, "What the heck do those people eat?" because my own food culture was so heavily intertwined with animal products that I couldn't imagine abstaining completely from them, but once you branch out you realize there are more possibilities than you can imagine for food. That's why a lot of vegans actually find that their diet has more variety rather than less even without meat or dairy products: because they're forced to broaden their food horizons.

My personal favorite is Indian cuisine, since India has a huge vegetarian culture and consequently a lot of great recipes. A great website is: http://www.manjulaskitchen.com

PHILIP said:

Anyways! Thanks for that. I can't do grains or soy. I'm allergic to both. But I will start to add more variety to my vegetables. I usually stick to brocolli or spinich because they're easy. But you listed some vegetables I've never even heard of...

Are you allergic to all grains, or just the more common ones such as wheat? There are so many grains that I can't imagine being allergic to them all, especially things like rice which are among the least allergenic of foods (even babies are fed rice-based foods when they begin eating solid foods for this reason)

For a more comprehensive list of culinary vegetables to try check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegetables

It's hard to get a hold of a lot of those vegetables in the U.S., since really our produce sections tend to only have the bare basics American consumers are used to, but you'll be able to find a lot of different stuff at farmer's markets, specialty stores, and online.

Mikael said:

But, I'm also convinced that Paleo diet is far the best diet in the moment and produce really amazing results. Being vegetarian you can survive, but I think you can't really have optimal physical plenitude, the meat nurtures the meat.

Why do you believe that the Paleo diet is the best for athletic performance? What nutrients are in the Paleo diet that can't be had from a vegetarian diet? Meat does nurture meat, in that it provides many nutrients, but as I said: there's nothing magical about meat. It doesn't possess any micro or macro nutrients that can't be gained from plant or synthetic sources, and there are elite vegetarian athletes out there that are living examples that you can do more than just "survive" on a vegetarian diet. What evidence do we have to think otherwise?

Just take a look at the animal kingdom as a whole, where not only are there far more herbivores than carnivores or omnivores, but some of the largest and strongest mammals are herbivores. Gorillas, elephants, hippopotamus, rhinoceros, cattle, buffalo, horses, and then we have dinosaurs like the Apatosaurus, one of the largest land mammals in Earth's history. Plants are the major source of sustenance on this planet, and without plants in the first place carnivores wouldn't even exist.

There's nothing wrong nutritionally with a proper meat diet, just as there is nothing wrong with a proper vegetarian diet. Which you choose is a question of your culture, social environment, religion, ethics, experiences, and other variables, but no matter which you choose your body and athletic performance can strive. One's genetics, nutrient consumption, quality of rest periods, and exercise regimen are the factors that determine how fast, strong, or hypertrophic we are. Whether or not we choose to munch on a tofu burger or a hamburger for lunch is really beside the point.

The GL of most grains is a bit too high for my taste. Especially with a family history of diabetes. So I tend to stick to meat and vegetables to not allow insulin spikes. I also don't really like grains at all. I've been without them so much that they bother me.

You can be successful on any diet. Some will be easier than others to certain people. But you can't forget that technique still makes up a big part of the sport.

Sliz, meat and whey is pretty close as far as AA breakdown.

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/aminoacids1.html

http://www.hammernutrition.com/hnt/2897/

This is a pretty cool breakdown of various cuts of beef in AA profile.

http://www.jbc.org/content/193/1/23.full.pdf

% of weight breakdown of Alanine, Arginine, IsoLeucine, Leucine, and Valine

egg white (meh) 33.7

tuna 29.9

beef 30.1

chicken 29.3

whey 29.2

casein 27.3

soy 29.6

COMPARISON OF AMINO ACID PROFILES IN COMMON PROTEINS [2] AMINO ACID (mg AA/g protein)

Human Milk Cow Milk Egg Beef Soy Whey

Leucine BCAA 95 86 83 82 89

Another Leucine breakdown

Percentage (%) by weight of amino acid

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitnes ... cids1.html

egg white 8.5

tuna 8.1

beef 8.0

chicken 7.5

whey 9.5

casein 9.0

soy 8.1

Whey beat most of them by 10-15% but only beats casein by 5% if that.

If you remember Lyle McDonald's numbers, pork tenderloin was actually faster than whey. He didn't have numbers for other meats, though.

Whey is technically an animal protein as it comes from milk. You can argue it isn't though if you want to get semantic about it.

I have some thoughts that soy proteins processed with funky chemicals like Hexane might be the culprit of the problems of soy protein like ***** mammaries and limp ****. So until we can figure which soy protein isolates are processed by what using what and tested, we won't know. It's a crapshot, at least.

Getting back to it, the problem I have seen with many vegetarian athletes is the pain or reluctance to get them to supplement with protein powders. Getting kids to do is problematic in the first place because of the taste of the best stuff out there.

Mikael said:

But, I'm also convinced that Paleo diet is far the best diet in the moment and produce really amazing results. Being vegetarian you can survive, but I think you can't really have optimal physical plenitude, the meat nurtures the meat.

Why do you believe that the Paleo diet is the best for athletic performance? What nutrients are in the Paleo diet that can't be had from a vegetarian diet? Meat does nurture meat, in that it provides many nutrients, but as I said: there's nothing magical about meat. It doesn't possess any micro or macro nutrients that can't be gained from plant or synthetic sources, and there are elite vegetarian athletes out there that are living examples that you can do more than just "survive" on a vegetarian diet. What evidence do we have to think otherwise?

:oops: Sorry if I not make it clear: is the best for ME, to others I really don't know how it works. I already tested ALL kind of diets and I find that is the best for ME. However, I'm a guy open to change and do not dispose adhere to vegetarianism (for spiritual reasons) in the future. I'm just a student in matters of life. :wink:

Just take a look at the animal kingdom as a whole, where not only are there far more herbivores than carnivores or omnivores, but some of the largest and strongest mammals are herbivores. Gorillas, elephants, hippopotamus, rhinoceros, cattle, buffalo, horses, and then we have dinosaurs like the Apatosaurus, one of the largest land mammals in Earth's history. Plants are the major source of sustenance on this planet, and without plants in the first place carnivores wouldn't even exist.

First of all, size doesn't always matter in nature. A anaconda can eat a cow and lions (unity is strength, right? :roll: ) can eat elephants. If the herbivores are bigger is possibly because one of them can feed many carnivores and that's a part of the gear of nature. However, the biggest animal (non-plant) of this planet's history is a carnivore and a mammal: the blue whale. Also, the most letal animal of the Earth is the killer whale, hunting in all the seas (only animal that hunts in an area so large like that) eating our big blue friend, giant squids and even white sharks. I wonder to see what happen to one of these herbivores walking on this coast:

Also, the carnivores are necessary to equilibrium and if there are more herbivores is because there a reason, God not make nothing in vain, human does. But you are completely right about plants.

There's nothing wrong nutritionally with a proper meat diet, just as there is nothing wrong with a proper vegetarian diet. Which you choose is a question of your culture, social environment, religion, ethics, experiences, and other variables, but no matter which you choose your body and athletic performance can strive. One's genetics, nutrient consumption, quality of rest periods, and exercise regimen are the factors that determine how fast, strong, or hypertrophic we are. Whether or not we choose to munch on a tofu burger or a hamburger for lunch is really beside the point.

Yeah, maybe you're right.

Blairbob said:

Sliz, meat and whey is pretty close as far as AA breakdown.

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/aminoacids1.html

http://www.hammernutrition.com/hnt/2897/

This is a pretty cool breakdown of various cuts of beef in AA profile.

http://www.jbc.org/content/193/1/23.full.pdf

% of weight breakdown of Alanine, Arginine, IsoLeucine, Leucine, and Valine

egg white (meh) 33.7

tuna 29.9

beef 30.1

chicken 29.3

whey 29.2

casein 27.3

soy 29.6

COMPARISON OF AMINO ACID PROFILES IN COMMON PROTEINS [2] AMINO ACID (mg AA/g protein)

Human Milk Cow Milk Egg Beef Soy Whey

Leucine BCAA 95 86 83 82 89

Another Leucine breakdown

Percentage (%) by weight of amino acid

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitnes ... cids1.html

egg white 8.5

tuna 8.1

beef 8.0

chicken 7.5

whey 9.5

casein 9.0

soy 8.1

Whey beat most of them by 10-15% but only beats casein by 5% if that.

If you remember Lyle McDonald's numbers, pork tenderloin was actually faster than whey. He didn't have numbers for other meats, though.

Whey is technically an animal protein as it comes from milk. You can argue it isn't though if you want to get semantic about it.

I have some thoughts that soy proteins processed with funky chemicals like Hexane might be the culprit of the problems of soy protein like ***** mammaries and limp ****. So until we can figure which soy protein isolates are processed by what using what and tested, we won't know. It's a crapshot, at least.

Getting back to it, the problem I have seen with many vegetarian athletes is the pain or reluctance to get them to supplement with protein powders. Getting kids to do is problematic in the first place because of the taste of the best stuff out there.

True, but by price point whey beats the snot out of beef. That is an awesome chart btw! Great find/post!

would just like to contribute this picture of my week's supply of grassfed to the conversation:

Probably the best comment on this thread.

PHILIP said:

So I tend to stick to meat and vegetables to not allow insulin spikes.

I also love meat, especially turkey and like my red meat red (rare!)but let me nitpick a bit ...

Eating a protein rich meal will spike insulin nearly as much as carb rich meal will, in general.

Obviously the amount of rise will vary within individuals.

It's blood sugar that does not spike from protein, and the blood sugar level is the complicating factor in diabetes,

although it's true insulin resistance may underlie this.

http://www.jacn.org/content/4/4/437.short

The high protein diet resulted in only a small post-meal glucose rise particularly later in the day in both males and females. However, there was a sharp rise in insulin concentration after each meal. The total insulin area after each meal was nearly as great as with the standard diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 7-0135.pdf

After healthy subjects had ingested protein

meals, plasma levels of insulin increased consistently

and significantly.

The increases in blood glucose occurring after

the ingestion of the protein meals are most likely

derived from the metabolism of glucogenic amino

acids. It is unlikely that the increases in blood

glucose either caused or contributed importantly to

the increases in plasma insulin observed. The

onset of increases in plasma insulin either occurred

without increases in blood glucose or were

preceded or accompanied by increases in blood

glucose of only up to 7 (mean 2) mg per 100 ml.

Berger and co-workers also suggested that the ingestion

of protein by normal human subjects increases

insulin secretion by a nonglucose-mediated

mechanism (17).

Also, the insulin rise from protein doesn't lower blood sugar levels due to a likely simultanious glucagon release.

Just clearing that up

Woops. Messed up my terminology apparently. Thanks FIN .

Also, That picture looks delicious. I feel like I should take my own. It is pretty much all I eat along with salads.

Does Whey beat Milk? I would pontificate that Whey Concentrate is probably cheaper than Organic Milk and Whey Isolate might actually be cheaper than Grass Fed, Free range milk. I wonder if there is a similar trend with Organic and Cage Free eggs? I don't see grass fed or organic milk or eggs being fairly cheap unless you have access to a cow share, own a cow, or egg farmer.

However, I'm probably not going to crunch those numbers.

Blairbob said:

Does Whey beat Milk? I would pontificate that Whey Concentrate is probably cheaper than Organic Milk and Whey Isolate might actually be cheaper than Grass Fed, Free range milk. I wonder if there is a similar trend with Organic and Cage Free eggs? I don't see grass fed or organic milk or eggs being fairly cheap unless you have access to a cow share, own a cow, or egg farmer.

However, I'm probably not going to crunch those numbers.

It wouldn't matter, because egg and milk proteins both get absorbed at a rate of around 3.4g per hour, almost 70% less per hour than whey. Too inefficient for my purposes.

Yep. However, Jeff probably prefers to just be as anabolic and eat a bucket of meat a day.

Then again, I wouldn't mind the tritip a day anabolic method.

Blairbob said:

Yep. However, Jeff probably prefers to just be as anabolic and eat a bucket of meat a day.

Then again, I wouldn't mind the tritip a day anabolic method.

That would be AWESOME! 2-3 oz of meat per hour? Sign me up. I love beef.