Anthropologist speaks out on Paleo

Hello,

This section is highly interesting to me, since I am vegetarian and trying to pull a high prot diet being one (and when I say vegan, it's without milk that I can't eat for health problems, and without eggs, too).

So, I just wanted to say that vegan diets are definitely not for everyone, some people just don't seem to be made for that.

I also want to add that an unbalanced vegan diet is far more dangerous than a regular diet, I began without any proper informations on it and I had quite a lote of problems early on. Just wanted to tell you about my own experience, if it can avoid you guys the same kind of disagrement.

Also, I wanted to ask if there were any vegan gymnast out there and if anyone had tips or recipes to share for a high prot vegan diet ? (I may create a particular post for this ? I don't know.. ).

PSon said:

Hello,

This section is highly interesting to me, since I am vegetarian and trying to pull a high prot diet being one (and when I say vegan, it's without milk that I can't eat for health problems, and without eggs, too).

So, I just wanted to say that vegan diets are definitely not for everyone, some people just don't seem to be made for that.

I also want to add that an unbalanced vegan diet is far more dangerous than a regular diet, I began without any proper informations on it and I had quite a lote of problems early on. Just wanted to tell you about my own experience, if it can avoid you guys the same kind of disagrement.

Also, I wanted to ask if there were any vegan gymnast out there and if anyone had tips or recipes to share for a high prot vegan diet ? (I may create a particular post for this ? I don't know.. ).

Greetings!

I'm not sure if there's enough vegetarians/vegans on the board to merit a thread about it (I saw one in the past, and it died pretty quickly, if I remember right) but I'm more than happy to share tips, knowledge, and recipes. I'm a complete foodie and cook vegan meals all day, so I have a lot of great recipes

If by being made for a vegan diet you mean all the psychological and environmental factors, then I definitely agree. It's dramatically different from the average diet, and takes both a lot of willpower, motivation, and time to adjust one's taste preferences and get into the flow of a vegan diet. That's why it's usually recommended to make small changes over time to adapt to the diet (like switching from milk to rice, almond, or soy milk, and then a few months later, once used to that, adding another change) rather than just trying it cold turkey, which has a pretty low success rate. Also depends a lot on the environmental factors, in that vegan diets aren't really feasible in some areas of the world, whereas in places like San Francisco you have tons of incredible vegan restaurants featuring all different types of ethnic cuisines, awesome vegan bakeries, and easier access to vegan food alternatives. But if you mean some people aren't biologically made for it, then I strongly disagree, as all that really matters is the macro and micro nutrients we consume. Our bodies have no way of differentiating whether or not those nutrients come from plant or animal sources. Anyone can thrive physically on a vegan diet, so long as it has proper nutrition.

http://veganhealth.org/articles/protein contains a ton of information on protein in the vegan diet, and has a list of plant foods and their protein/amino acid content. For me personally, I prefer to just get the majority of my protein from soy isolate (if you're allergic to soy then there are other vegan protein powders), since it's quick and easy. Getting all your protein from whole foods works, but it takes a lot more effort.

I don't know of any professional vegan gymnasts (I know there are a few vegetarian ones, though), but you can find lists of other professional athletes/bodybuilders who are vegan online. The most famous is no doubt Carl Lewis, who won nine Olympic gold medals. Vegans are such a tiny percentage of the population that it's really hard to find examples in any specific sport I've heard of a few Cirque du Soleil acrobats who were vegan, but that's about it for gymnastic-style work.

Aurele said:

I don't know of any professional vegan gymnasts (I know there are a few vegetarian ones, though), but you can find lists of other professional athletes/bodybuilders who are vegan online. The most famous is no doubt Carl Lewis, who won nine Olympic gold medals. Vegans are such a tiny percentage of the population that it's really hard to find examples in any specific sport I've heard of a few Cirque du Soleil acrobats who were vegan, but that's about it for gymnastic-style work.

Hélio Gracie, the greater master of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, lived 70 years of his 92 as vegan. He also trained and give classes for about 7hrs per day until his disincarnation.

Mikael said:

Aurele said:

I don't know of any professional vegan gymnasts (I know there are a few vegetarian ones, though), but you can find lists of other professional athletes/bodybuilders who are vegan online. The most famous is no doubt Carl Lewis, who won nine Olympic gold medals. Vegans are such a tiny percentage of the population that it's really hard to find examples in any specific sport I've heard of a few Cirque du Soleil acrobats who were vegan, but that's about it for gymnastic-style work.

Hélio Gracie, the greater master of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, lived 70 years of his 92 as vegan. He also trained and give classes for about 7hrs per day until his disincarnation.

Are you sure Helio was vegan? That would be awesome if true, but from looking it up it appears that though he followed a mostly plant-based diet, he did still eat animal products. There are a bunch of high level grapplers, and MMA fighters that are vegetarian, Jake Shields likely being the most notable, but I can't find any vegan ones with Google. Not surprising since there are way more vegetarians than vegans.

Hello, and thanks for the fast reply !

I went through this article you gave me Aurele, and I'm happy to see that soy based products are full of lysine (that was one of my concerns in fact, not to have full proteins without combining lentilles and brown rice, for example... which I find taste not good and is boring to "cook").

About vegan diet not being for everyone I of course meant, psychological and social difficulties (some of my friends can't live without at least a steack a day, or they go nuts).

I found this clip some times ago, it's inspiring for me.

About recipes etc, I would be glad to have some if you don't mind, but I have to say I have not the soul of a cook (frankly speaking, "cooking is boring"), so elaborates recipes are most likely not for me !

I am happy to see there are informations about vegan diet, because it is quite hard to find some in French, I used to use the recipes of C.Kousmine (M.D.), maybe you have heard of it ? If no, I'll be more than happy to share recipes from her with you, too.

Aurele said:

Mikael said:

Aurele said:

I don't know of any professional vegan gymnasts (I know there are a few vegetarian ones, though), but you can find lists of other professional athletes/bodybuilders who are vegan online. The most famous is no doubt Carl Lewis, who won nine Olympic gold medals. Vegans are such a tiny percentage of the population that it's really hard to find examples in any specific sport I've heard of a few Cirque du Soleil acrobats who were vegan, but that's about it for gymnastic-style work.

Hélio Gracie, the greater master of Brazillian Jiu Jitsu, lived 70 years of his 92 as vegan. He also trained and give classes for about 7hrs per day until his disincarnation.

Are you sure Helio was vegan? That would be awesome if true, but from looking it up it appears that though he followed a mostly plant-based diet, he did still eat animal products. There are a bunch of high level grapplers, and MMA fighters that are vegetarian, Jake Shields likely being the most notable, but I can't find any vegan ones with Google. Not surprising since there are way more vegetarians than vegans.

I know hundred percent true that he didn't ate MEAT for seventy years. I think if someone don't eat meat is easier cut all animal products, but I'm not sure if he still drank milk, ate eggs, etc. :|

PSon said:

Hello, and thanks for the fast reply !

I went through this article you gave me Aurele, and I'm happy to see that soy based products are full of lysine (that was one of my concerns in fact, not to have full proteins without combining lentilles and brown rice, for example... which I find taste not good and is boring to "cook").

Soy is the golden boy of plant proteins; it's the only complete plant protein, and ranks just as highly as animal protein in terms of amino acid digestibility. Combining proteins can be really bothersome if you have to plan and think about it, but if you have a well-balanced and varied diet you'll get all your essential amino acids even without planning it. Variation is the key to every diet.

About recipes etc, I would be glad to have some if you don't mind, but I have to say I have not the soul of a cook (frankly speaking, "cooking is boring"), so elaborates recipes are most likely not for me !

I am happy to see there are informations about vegan diet, because it is quite hard to find some in French, I used to use the recipes of C.Kousmine (M.D.), maybe you have heard of it ? If no, I'll be more than happy to share recipes from her with you, too.

I haven't heard of C.Kousmine, but I'd enjoy some of his/her recipes, thanks!

I don't have recipes categorized by protein content, so I can't really post specific recipes, but http://vegweb.com/ is the best resource for vegan recipes on the net, and you can find a ton of high-protein recipes there. The beans/legumes, and tofu categories will have the most, but you'll be able to find delicious high-protein recipes in other categories too

Mikael said:

I know hundred percent true that he didn't ate MEAT for seventy years. I think if someone don't eat meat is easier cut all animal products, but I'm not sure if he still drank milk, ate eggs, etc. :|

Yeah, definitely a lot easier to go from vegetarian to vegan than omnivore to vegan, since with vegetarian you've already eliminated one food group. That's why I was vegetarian for a year before making the full switch; the transition is just so much easier when you eliminate animal products little by little rather than trying to cut it all out at once.

I'll definitely bring up the Helio tidbit in my BJJ class if I ever overhear anyone trash-talking vegetarianism

Buckwheat and quinoa both have complete proteins as well. Just saying

slizzardman said:

Buckwheat and quinoa both have complete proteins as well. Just saying

Woops, thanks for the correction. I always forget that buckwheat, quinoa, amaranth, and a couple of others (chia seeds and hemp, if I remember correctly) are complete proteins too since I rarely cook with them.

PSon, if you like Japanese food try some soba noodle dishes; great source of buckwheat, easy to make, and super tasty.

Hello,

Thanks yes, I like Japanese food. I already ate soba before, it's real good indeed.

Will take me plenty of time to browse through the whole site with recipes etc, but it's definitely worth the pain.

Here is a quick recipe for High Prot' snacks or breakfast, from C.Kousmine (a "she", btw !) : (the better prot' ratio is with the almonds, brown rice, and banana. To have much prot' from the banana there is a little trick, you have to crush the banana in a plate and leave it in contact with air for about 10 minutes, the enzymes from the banana itself will change the banana carbs into prot' because of the oxygen reaction, you will know when it's ready thanks to the look, it looks viscous and a little brown, rather disgusting if you ask me but that doesn't matter after it's blended with the other things !)

1)

either one of the following, + 2 spoons of sunflower oil or flax oil :

-yogurt 4 spoon (the big ones) or

-soja based yogurt (same spoons) or

-3 spoons of almonds or sunflower seed or flax seed

2)

-1 spoon of honey or

-3 spoons of raisin or

-1 well ripped banana or

-3 prunes

3)

2 spoons of either (raw) :

- with gluten : oat, barley

-without : brown rice, buckwheat, quinoa, millet

4)

2 spoons of either :

-nuts

-sunflower seed

-squash seeds

-flax seed

-hazelnuts

-sesame seeds

5)

-juice of 1/2 lemon and 150/200g of raw fruits (organic if possible, the fruits are optional)

Then you blend everything together, starting with the cereals, and then seeds, finishing with the liquid things.

It's really fast to do and gives a good level of energy (the trick is to put the cereals in the water the evening before, so that they are easy to blend, else it's a bit hard to have something without big hard parts in it).

Well, I use this one for the meal before working out, and I take goji berries after the workout, you might know this one for it's very healthy and have a great taste, perhaps ?

Concerning proteins, from the article you gave me Aurele, and from what I understood of it, it seems that all proteins are complete, even in the vegan' ones, BUT the vegetals prot' are low in lysine compared to the animal ones. The only one to compete with animal proteins is the soy prot.

Also, it's true that quinoa is nice, but it's also high carbs (about 66g of carbs for 100g of product for the quinoa), and you want low carbs in a High Prot diet, especially for the evening meal in my case. For this reason, I eat quinoa or brown rice for lunch, but rarely in the evening.

PSon said:

Hello,

Concerning proteins, from the article you gave me Aurele, and from what I understood of it, it seems that all proteins are complete, even in the vegan' ones, BUT the vegetals prot' are low in lysine compared to the animal ones. The only one to compete with animal proteins is the soy prot.

Also, it's true that quinoa is nice, but it's also high carbs (about 66g of carbs for 100g of product for the quinoa), and you want low carbs in a High Prot diet, especially for the evening meal in my case. For this reason, I eat quinoa or brown rice for lunch, but rarely in the evening.

That recipe sounds delicious, I'll give it a shot this weekend as a pre-workout meal.

A lot of legumes have lysine pretty close to the amount in animal proteins. Lentils are 6.97%, peas are 7.22%, and garbanzo beans are 6.69%. Combining proteins can be bothersome, but Indian cuisine and a lot of Middle Eastern cuisine naturally has complete protein combinations for their dishes, so if you just use those recipes you'll naturally get tons of complete proteins.

Veganism might remove two whole food groups, but in my experience it actually increases variety in one's diet tenfold because you're much more likely to explore ethnic cuisines and foods you wouldn't have otherwise experimented with or included in your diet. Playing with recipes from all around the world is a really fun experience

We'd have to compare all the data again, but sprouted brown rice and pea protein may be close or exceed Soy protein when it comes to amino acid breakdowns. Spirulina is a complete protein but its AA numbers are quite poor compared to whey or casein. Other vegetarian proteins suffer from the same malady. Hemp may be considered a complete protein but it's AA profile is pretty weak compared to others.

As for buckwheat and chia and quinoa, I haven't seen any numbers nor have I looked for any. They might be out there.

Whey does not have that much Arginine or Lysine as some of the plant proteins off the top of my head.

Talking about soy... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476

haven't read the study yet though

Razz said:

Talking about soy... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476

haven't read the study yet though

I wouldn't put much faith in those results since it's about a single case study, and the study itself doesn't seem available.

My libido is A-okay despite constant soy consumption every day