Consensus on FSP prereq programming

I'm seeing some mixed information here regarding the FSP prereqs, and I'd like to get the story straight.

First off, I'm talking about the following:

Straight-Arm Plank
Reverse Plank
Hollow Hold
Arch Hold
PB Support Hold
Chinup Grip Dead Hang

The goal is to get all of this to a 60s hold. But I've seen conflicting reports as to how to train this. My current understanding is that one should do the above in order, holding for either 60s (if that is achievable without too much effort) or holding for half one's maximum hold. Is this the correct reading?

So, for example, one might do 60s plank holds, followed by two 30s hollow holds, three 20s arch holds, a 60s PB support hold, and two 30s chinup hangs. Is this correct?

Furthermore, my understanding is that ALL of these should hit 60s before including more advanced work, but all of these holds should always remain in one's program. Is this correct? Should we always begin our work with the previous circuit of 6?

Any other nuances I'm missing?

To use CC terminology the progression standard for that list is 3 x 60 sec before moving to the next item on the list. At that point maintain the previous step at 1 x 60 sec.

Here's where it gets more complicated. That list is a concatenation of three lists.

FL / PL / BL

I don't know that there is an 'approved' sequence of running through the lists, but the options would be PL1, PL2....Fl1, FL2....BL1, BL2.... or Pl1,Fl1,BL1..... (or any arrangement of PL.BL.FL you come up with)

I wish i could get into the full details but for the time being have to leave it there.

So the three sets of 60 seconds for the basic FSPs? Is this the same for everything up to advanced tuck which is normally 30 secs?

So for example I do ring support for 40s +20s but eventually I should be aiming for 3 x 60s?

Sorry for the questions I am just a little unsure now. I was aiming for 60s and can do all the basic FSPs for 60s. I might have to go back and do them for 3x60s if this is the case!

One needs to build up to 3 x 60 sec. Once they have hit that then move to 1 x 60 second and begin the next step in the progression.

Mr Brady said:

To use CC terminology the progression standard for that list is 3 x 60 sec before moving to the next item on the list. At that point maintain the previous step at 1 x 60 sec.

Here's where it gets more complicated. That list is a concatenation of three lists.

FL / PL / BL

I don't know that there is an 'approved' sequence of running through the lists, but the options would be PL1, PL2....Fl1, FL2....BL1, BL2.... or Pl1,Fl1,BL1..... (or any arrangement of PL.BL.FL you come up with)

I wish i could get into the full details but for the time being have to leave it there.

I understand the desire to keep this information under wraps, at least until it is contained in some book, I'm more curious about programming the basics at this point.

Regarding the 3x60s part - should they be done as a circuit, or a set? Does it really matter? I've seen elsewhere that "little to no rest" is preferred.

Secondly, let's assume I know the next steps of the progressions. Does one move on partially? That is, if I can do A1 for 3x60s, but B1 for 3x20s, do I then perform 1x60s A1, 3x??s A2, 3x20s B1? Or do I wait to pass all of the 1s before including any 2s?

Aside: the reason I ask this is that I attempted 3 circuits of the basic FSPs and actually couldn't complete it, so I am going to backtrack and spend 4 weeks or so, to see if I can hit them all. At this point, I want to know how to progress.

Good questions, i'll answer to the best of my knowledge.

For the last steps in the three progressions, you do them 3 times say 20 seconds with a minimal break between each 20 second repetition. I do them together and at least at the lower levels find it works fine. It may be an interesting idea to make a giant set out of all three though, why not?

Treat each progression as its own and move on accordingly, BL will move more slowly at first, at least for me.

PL: Plank, Rev Plank, PB Support Hold.....

FL: Hollow Body Hold, Hollow Body Rock.....

BL: Arch Body Hold, Arch Body Rock....

(sub reps for seconds with the rocks.)

The hangs are also part of the progressions, but can be worked on separately, and for us it's not a bad idea.

I also decided to start from zero last month as i never did the 3 x 60 test. now i'm working hard on Hollow Body Hold, its a very demanding standard Coach sets.

Mr Brady said:

I also decided to start from zero last month as i never did the 3 x 60 test. now i'm working hard on Hollow Body Hold, its a very demanding standard Coach sets.

Well now I don't feel so bad. 3x60s is hard. I tested my max and hit 60/40/35 with about 20-30s rest between.

So should one keep the "old" steps which are passed in these progressions? Should I be doing plank and hollow holds for all eternity? I could see it be beneficial, but also ballooning the FSP warmup out of control at the later stages.

If you can do 3x60s, then 1x60s can suffice for your programming so long as you do something more difficult.

If you haven't built up to the ability to do 3x60s, I would explore the possibility of a volume approach; especially if you cannot perform 1x60s much less 3x60s.

If you could only hold 60s and that it's, I would play with volume approaches of 3m total using either 30s or 45s holds. 2 45s holds +3 30s holds. I played with this awhile back and I liked it.

If you could only hold 30s, that means a whole boat of 20 and 15, possibly 10s holds.

I'm not understanding how to approach the 3 x 60s test.

Does this mean that each pre-FSP will be tested separated, hold 1 set for 60s, then rest (and for how long?), then perform the second set, rest, then the third set? Then move on to the next pre-FSP?

Is that how to approach testing them? To my understanding, this testing approach is different from the standard warmup approach, which, even in this thread there still seems to be varying approaches in terms of grouping the exercises.

That's my understanding as well - there's no clear programming here.

I know it's been presented in seminars, but not all of us can travel for these sorts of things...

Idea time: with the new digital format in the shops, Coach could probably release smaller volumes in almost essay format. I'd pay $5-$10 to read an official writeup on programming pre-FSPs and building up to real FSP work.

Testing wasn't brought up at the seminars to my recollection but it's essentially in the book as part of the SSC.

In the seminars (that i've been to) the three FSP tree were covered individually. I can't recall how they were sequenced in the warm ups, i think it was 111, 222....

At the end of your SSC and before the next one do the test.

Coach seriously does the series with his athletes with little to no rest between exercises and a highlight of the seminars is how the warmup that's a breeze for his kids is killing us.

Slizz is the originator of the warm up at 50% idea and we all know he puts allot of thought into things. So there certainly are some differing opinions on how to go about it. Well that's always going to be the case anyway.

In fact i'd venture to say this is both the most confusing part of the program and the most controversial. I spoke with a few guys who thought the volume was too high for strength work. Certainly there are coaches who are satisfied with 30 seconds.

I personally balked at this, because frankly i don't enjoy doing the static holds while they are happening. That's ironic for a yoga guy who should be used to holding static poses but Coach sets a high standard.

I've come to realize that this volume is vital for laying a solid foundation and have made the FSPs there own little project that i do on workout days after i finish my evening classes. I have it on a spread sheet with the testing process and the SSC start and finish dates.

For me i feel too much time pressure if i combine with the WODs so this is working fine.

@Phrak that is a great idea, if there is one thing i would like to see spelled out clearly its this. And it would be a great 'patch' until the second ed comes out, assuming its covered completely there.

Phrak, i just passed your idea on to Coach Sommer.

Thank you for the info. I will go back and look at getting 3x60secs to the basic FSPs again. I might add this onto the end of the WODs and maybe a few a day.

Very thorough response Mr Brady, and YES, great idea, phrak! I'd pay for that!

Oh Lord! :shock: I can't do this yet becasue i have already atrted my steady state cycle...but come january, whew! I have a lot of work to do! (not that i didn't already)

I used to be pretty systematic, needing all the information and exactly how to do it when I started, but now , in retrospect, I have a rough idea of what I will be doing and then I just do it.

For example, for my FSPs (even though I know the progressions from the seminar, etc), I do PL, Manna, Straddle L, and L sit for 3 sets of a hold time that feels like it starts getting hard (this approximates my current max hold time) FL and BL I am leaving out as I can already full lay them. Every now and then, I test the next progression and see how long I can hold it. I add that progression into the mix if I can hold it for a time that I consider reasonable and somewhat effortless, which is usually around 10 seconds.

Coincidentally, I tested my max hold time for a few of the FSPs and they are about twice the hold time of what my perceived "starting to get hard" time is. Also , coincidentally I move up a progression every 2 months. So coach's programming, IMO, is more of a rule of thumb, but not necessarily a draconian "you must achieve this to move on, etc". This of course is my opinion.

This allows me to have a more free-form FSP without having to record numbers and get all that math down. I literally finish some jump ropes, arm swings, floor shoulder series, and spend about 5-10 min on FSP doing each for an amount of time that I feel is starting to get hard, and just stop , wait some amount of time (probably 30 sec to 3 minutes depending on how I feel that day), and do my next FSP.

The point I am trying to make (and I don't speak for Coach or anyone else, but myself), is that I think you shouldn't stress over the sets, reps, etc that much. Find out which progression you are on, and put work into the progression. Play around with other progressions, but do not actually work them. When you feel you are ready, test that next progression. Both my flat tuck back lever and flat tuck front lever were about 50 seconds or so when I was holding 12 second full lays for both. The 60 second benchmark is another rule of thumb that Coach probably devised after years of noticing a pattern, but it's not the end all - be all.

Hope that clears things up . Again, I speak only for myself.

Erich

I went back to see how I would go with 3 x 60 secs of the basic FSPs. That was tough!!!! I couldn't even get to 2 minutes. I plan on doing some 3x30seconds and adding 5 seconds a week on each set until I hit 3x60 seconds. Once I achieve that I am going to still do 1x60 second of the same FSPs as a warm up and then work on my current progression.

Thanks again for the advice, I know this will only make me stronger in the long run.

Dave

DBeckerman, I am doing the same thing you are. Restarting at some of the basic positions and working up to 3x60 seconds. It's hard, but getting this basic stuff done will help a lot in the future.

I am currently redoing these as well. I've removed all my regular FSP work for the next 4 weeks, so that I can perfect some of these prereqs. I will be shooting for hard (75% effort) sets on the ones I cannot currently "pass", and doing 1x60s on the ones I have currently passed (at 3x60s). This basically means I'll be doing 40s arch and hollow holds, and 30s chinup hangs.

As an aside, chinup hangs seem to really torque my wrists a lot. Is this expected?

phrak:

I have the same issue with chin hangs hurting my wrists due to "torqueing" as you put it. I also would like to know if that is to be expected or if my grip is somehow wrong... :?

taenkarth said:

phrak:

I have the same issue with chin hangs hurting my wrists due to "torqueing" as you put it. I also would like to know if that is to be expected or if my grip is somehow wrong... :?

If the shoulders are tight, the humerus (upper arm) will have a tendency to internally rotate in a chin up hang. As the wrist is locked on to the bar, this torque will be felt somewhere in the middle the bar and the shoulder, namely the wrist and/or elbow, because they are the only "moving" joints with their own limited range of motion.

I would stretch/foam roll/SMR the lats and go for a nice open shoulder angle and also work on improving external rotation of the shoulder. MWod has a ton of ideas for this stuff.

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Mr Brady said:

Good questions, i'll answer to the best of my knowledge.

For the last steps in the three progressions, you do them 3 times say 20 seconds with a minimal break between each 20 second repetition. I do them together and at least at the lower levels find it works fine. It may be an interesting idea to make a giant set out of all three though, why not?

Treat each progression as its own and move on accordingly, BL will move more slowly at first, at least for me.

PL: Plank, Rev Plank, PB Support Hold.....

FL: Hollow Body Hold, Hollow Body Rock.....

BL: Arch Body Hold, Arch Body Rock....

(sub reps for seconds with the rocks.)

The hangs are also part of the progressions, but can be worked on separately, and for us it's not a bad idea.

I also decided to start from zero last month as i never did the 3 x 60 test. now i'm working hard on Hollow Body Hold, its a very demanding standard Coach sets.

As far as the hollow body rock and arch body rocks, would it be 60 seconds of continuous rocking at a certain pace or just 60 rocks? Thank you for any help and all that you've given thus far!

I remember slizz saying that if one can do FSP prereqs for 60s easily at first attempt, that should be all one should do. I can hold them easily for 60s each. Should I aim for 3X60s and suspend FBEs until I hit that 3X60?

It got so complicated. I hope 2nd edition of the book is on its way. :?

Adriano said:

It got so complicated. I hope 2nd edition of the book is on its way. :?

Agreed. I don't think it's actually complicated, but I get the same vibe I get from martial arts books or manuals - disinformation is added in order to make people get the training in real life.

While it is a always a big plus to work with someone who knows what they are doing, i don't think that's the reason.

I'm sorry this has caused more confusion, maybe that's why it hasn't come up on the forum before now.