help needed with stretching routine

hello all,

i would like to start out by thanking everyone on here for all the great information and putting together such an outstanding site. i am use to crossfit and have always wanted to get more serious into gymnastics and this is the perfect format for me. but i have came upon something that i haven't found anything definitive that has worked for stretching. reading the stickies in the getting started section as well as other sections it has been said that the stretching portion should make you sore and can/should only be done once a week then twice a week when it doesn't make you as sore. this is where i am not sure if i am not doing thing right.

i have a stretching routine that takes 30-45 mins but i am not sore at the end and normally do at least 20 min of stretching before and after any serious workout. i have been on the drills and skill site and there are alot of the stretches i do on there or different variations. but one thing that i do notice is that my flexibility doesn't improve by much and the difference is minimal between now and 6 months ago.

any advice you guys have and give me is greatly appreciated and hopefully it my help some of my other guys that run into the same problem.

Respectfully,

Ryan

Are you doing any weighted or ballistic stretches?

i don't stretch routinely with weights but i through it in a few time a month. i am not sure what ballistic stretching is, i might but i may call it something else or just not know that is the name for it. i normally use an object or person to pull/ push my stretches deeper.

Ballistic stretching = Using momentum to stretch.

So if you bend over to touch your toes, you would do it quickly to get as deep as possible, then come back up.

I have been using a technique he calls "Contrast Breaths" (stretch, tense the muscle, then release to increase the stretch, rinse and repeat) from Pavel's "Relax Into Stretch". This is also known as "Forced Relaxation", at least from his book (you might have heard of it).

It works VERY well, but hurts like a mo-fo.

I do know, HOWEVER, that stretching for 1-2 times a week is not that efficient. I believe (at least from what I've read, and experience itself) that you get more by stretching more often (even if said stretching session becomes shorter), usually after working out (less painful, and you can go deeper).

3-4 days is Pavel's starting recommendation. It worked pretty well.

As far as the soreness goes, if you will feel sore, it will be the NEXT day. Not right after the stretch. And even there, you don't HAVE to feel sore. At the beginning, yes. After a few months, unless you really push the envelope, soreness from stretching isn't that consistent.

My 0.02 cents here!

It sounds like whatever you are doing in your stretching routine has been adapted to.

How flexible are you currently?

Patrick: yes i do ballistic stretching from time to time but i do not like to because i have pulled muscles using this type. i am sure it is all me being over zealous though.

305: i will try the contrast stretching, i have used that once upon a time but got away from it for some reason. also i am not talking about only stretching once or twice a week, but a heavy and focused stretch once or twice a week. i will always warm up and stretch then cool down and stretch, i have hurt myself to much by not doing this to not do it.

blairbob: i dont know how to rate flexibility but i can do a standing pike and touch my head to my knees, i cant do the side splits but am about 12" or so off the ground when attempting it. when in the seated straddle, i can extend each leg out to about 60 degrees and struggle to lean forward and touch my elbows to the ground and working to lay flat. i can do full rotations on skin the cats forward and back. i dont know what other info would be helpful and will happily give any you need.

305pelusa said:

Ballistic stretching = Using momentum to stretch.

So if you bend over to touch your toes, you would do it quickly to get as deep as possible, then come back up.

That is not ballistic stretching, that is dynamic stretching (although typically you wouldn't go "as deep as possible", at least certainly not initially.

Ballistic stretching is bouncing in the stretch. It used to be very common ~10-15 years ago but has been almost completely removed from any physical instruction. For example, sitting on the floor touching your toes, you go as far as you can, then bounce forwards and backwards (would be fairly small movement, say 2-3 inches). It's not used much as it puts huge stress on the muscles, causes many injuries, and actually doesn't get particularly good results.

305pelusa said:

I have been using a technique he calls "Contrast Breaths" (stretch, tense the muscle, then release to increase the stretch, rinse and repeat) from Pavel's "Relax Into Stretch". This is also known as "Forced Relaxation", at least from his book (you might have heard of it).

It works VERY well, but hurts like a mo-fo.

This is what you want to be doing Acerr. PNF/Isometric stretching is very effective, especially if you've reached a plateau on your current range of flexibility.

There's variations as to the particulars of the technique, but the process is as pelusa described. Perform a normal static stretch (i.e. put a leg up on a table, touch your toes) and hold for 30s. Then, reduce the stretch slightly and tense/contract the stretched muscle, building up the force so after ~4s it's as tight as you can make it. Hold for 12s, then relax, and immediately relax into the stretch slightly further. Repeat. (Arguments on how many times you should repeat. Some say just one cycle is enough, some say repeat once, twice, even three times. Once just doesn't feel enough for me so I do a repeat. Your experience may vary etc)

General advice suggests you shouldn't be doing PNF/Isometric more than three times a week. Would suggest start doing just twice a week and see how it goes for a month or two.

Keep doing your regular stretch routine on workout days of course. Although if you've been stuck at the same level for a while try swapping in some different stretches / variations of what you're doing. Always good to try new things

(Teenagers/adolescents should not pnf stretch. Can be bad!)

viewty said:

305pelusa said:

That is not ballistic stretching, that is dynamic stretching (although typically you wouldn't go "as deep as possible", at least certainly not initially.

Ballistic stretching is bouncing in the stretch. It used to be very common ~10-15 years ago but has been almost completely removed from any physical instruction. For example, sitting on the floor touching your toes, you go as far as you can, then bounce forwards and backwards (would be fairly small movement, say 2-3 inches). It's not used much as it puts huge stress on the muscles, causes many injuries, and actually doesn't get particularly good results.

My bad then! I knew there was momentum involved, but I mixed them up I guess.

Sorry for the confusion!

Viewty: i just found a great site that instructs on that type of stretching last night:

http://www.trickstutorials.com/index.ph ... ntent/flx3

i attempted it on a few stretches this morning after my run and it will take some getting use to and couldn't quiet get the hang of it yet. but will get more indepth with it after my main workout tonight.

but after thinking about blairbob's question of my flexability and seriously thinking of a weak point in my stretching, i have come to the conclusion that my lower back and posterior are the weak point in the depth of my stretching. what stretches would be advised to help get better depth in the straddle to touch the ground or being able to stretch my legs past the 90 degree point on the front leg lift.

I think you need to explore more specific hip flexibility stretches. Your lower back and posterior chain sound fine. Lots of froggie splits, perhaps assisted stretching with a rope or partner.

Look at your internal and external hip rotation ROM. Check out Kelly Starlett's MobilityWOD.

http://www.mobilitywod.com/

blairbob: i will definitely start stretching more on my hip and try some new hip mobility work and will look into the MWOD it does look like a great program thank you.

to all, thank you for your great inputs it has given me a lot to think about and a wealth of knowledge to go forward with! just this week alone both me and my workout partner have noticed a stark improvement in not only my stretching but in my ROM and power output. the only thing that changed since we started our workout program was the stretching. i cant wait to see the results after my goal time frame is up! thank you all again!

Acerr2562 said:

Viewty: i just found a great site that instructs on that type of stretching last night:

http://www.trickstutorials.com/index.ph ... ntent/flx3

i attempted it on a few stretches this morning after my run and it will take some getting use to and couldn't quiet get the hang of it yet. but will get more indepth with it after my main workout tonight.

but after thinking about blairbob's question of my flexability and seriously thinking of a weak point in my stretching, i have come to the conclusion that my lower back and posterior are the weak point in the depth of my stretching. what stretches would be advised to help get better depth in the straddle to touch the ground or being able to stretch my legs past the 90 degree point on the front leg lift.

Aaah incredible, didn't realise Juji was still running that site. I started browsing there back when I was ~15 or so!

His stretch article that you've linked is very good, if a little silly in places. Talks through the techniques very clearly with pictures. Good find.

While focused targeted stretches are good, if there's a particular movement you're struggling with, the best way to develop it is to stretch that position! Stretching is like weight lifting - yes isolations are good, but complex movements generally (there are exceptions obviously) yield better results. Why stretch just your hamstrings, when you can stretch your hammies, hips, lower back, glutes etc all in one.