Best Abdominal Exercise for Progression

Hey guys. This will sound like a stupid question or a string of very ambiguous/far-fetched hypotheses but bear with me.

I've been thinking about what exercise to implement into my workout regimen to support steady progressive overload for the abs. Meaning, of course, that I can very accurately measure progress, and increase the loading for the exercise.

My thoughts: Janda just might do the trick. It's almost an isolated movement, but it takes great finesse to master the technique and keep the "groove" of the movement. For me, almost daily practice is needed to keep the legs down = the technique fresh in my mind.

Standing wheel rollouts, are awesome. It is very difficult, however, to measure progress when you've made it to doing 1-5 reps with a full range of motion. To add weight would compromise form due to the movement: It's not strictly for the abs.

Hanging leg lifts is another great movement. Adding weight to the ankles works up until your grip gives out. So that's a no-go.

Dragonflags cease to be difficult after 10-20 reps, and it puts a lot of stress on the elbows and the shoulders, which are less powerful than the abdominal muscles (is it so? I dunno. I'm just throwing it out there.).

What about normal crunches done with a weight behind your head? It seems good and close enough to the only steadily measurable ab exercise. That, or a crunch done on a swiss ball with a smaller weight to increase the range of spinal flexion.

L-sit holds are great, they build crazy strength in the abdominals, but the range of motion is 0, so you've got a lot of strength on the static position, but it doesn't carry that much into the full range of motion.

Any thoughts on good abdominal exercises? This is largely due to the fact that I'm starting a mass-gaining phase in my training, and looking for movements I can easily measure progress in. Oh yeah: Holding the lockout position of a deadlift in a smith-machine is a great static core drill, but that also requires grip strength..

If your grip strength is a concern, but you want to do the exercise, like hanging leg raises, why not use straps?

I feel that when the grip tires out, or isn't used, the shoulder girdle tension is lost, and once that's lost it's pretty hazardous to continue hanging on the bar. This is just a quick opinion. I'm thinking the abdominal movement should be something that focuses directly on the abdominal muscles so all focus can be directed towards the core tension.

I might be in an analysis paralysis mode again, but just kind of hoping to get some opinions on other movements than the Janda, since it's such a hassle to do. I have a system figured out where I strap a rubber band around my ankles at a 45' angle and use another one for leverage to raise myself up if need be. Now, though, it's no longer necessary and I can do 1-3 full repetitions, but the ankle elevation is still a problem. And, I'd imagine eventually, the loading will become a problem. No use in doing 6+ reps if the goal is to add strength.

L-sit holds are great, they build crazy strength in the abdominals, but the range of motion is 0, so you've got a lot of strength on the static position, but it doesn't carry that much into the full range of motion

An interesting anecdote by Coach Sommer in BtGB was the story of how early on his coach made him train an L-sit to 1m (?) Having achieved this, HangingLegLifts were not an issue as I believe he wrote that he could 10 having achieved that.

Khassera said:

Hey guys. This will sound like a stupid question or a string of very ambiguous/far-fetched hypotheses but bear with me.

I've been thinking about what exercise to implement into my workout regimen to support steady progressive overload for the abs. Meaning, of course, that I can very accurately measure progress, and increase the loading for the exercise.

My thoughts: Janda just might do the trick. It's almost an isolated movement, but it takes great finesse to master the technique and keep the "groove" of the movement. For me, almost daily practice is needed to keep the legs down = the technique fresh in my mind.

Standing wheel rollouts, are awesome. It is very difficult, however, to measure progress when you've made it to doing 1-5 reps with a full range of motion. To add weight would compromise form due to the movement: It's not strictly for the abs.

Hanging leg lifts is another great movement. Adding weight to the ankles works up until your grip gives out. So that's a no-go.

Dragonflags cease to be difficult after 10-20 reps, and it puts a lot of stress on the elbows and the shoulders, which are less powerful than the abdominal muscles (is it so? I dunno. I'm just throwing it out there.).

What about normal crunches done with a weight behind your head? It seems good and close enough to the only steadily measurable ab exercise. That, or a crunch done on a swiss ball with a smaller weight to increase the range of spinal flexion.

L-sit holds are great, they build crazy strength in the abdominals, but the range of motion is 0, so you've got a lot of strength on the static position, but it doesn't carry that much into the full range of motion.

Any thoughts on good abdominal exercises? This is largely due to the fact that I'm starting a mass-gaining phase in my training, and looking for movements I can easily measure progress in. Oh yeah: Holding the lockout position of a deadlift in a smith-machine is a great static core drill, but that also requires grip strength..

You are overlooking something vital regarding L sit:

1) You are building strength at 90 degrees to gravity, meaning you are developing strength in the hardest part of the ROM.

2) you gain full strength benefits in 15 degrees above and below the angle trained, so you are going to be buff daddy on the entire hardest part of HLL if you have a beastly L sit.

L sit is awesome.

Having said that, The original progression I used was decline sit ups until I had 15-20 reps easily with 50 lbs on my shoulders/ chest (NOT STOMACH). After that I did inverted sit ups until I had 15-20 reps with 75 lbs. At that point I was able to just up and do body levers, though they made me sore for a week because I did 10 in a row.

Done over again I think these two done simultaneously would be smart, and it's probably best to just start with inverted situps right away if you can do them and have a place to do them, though I don't know that for sure.

HLL are a joke for me now, I just need my shoulders to feel better so I can do them regularly.

slizzardman said:

You are overlooking something vital regarding L sit:

1) You are building strength at 90 degrees to gravity, meaning you are developing strength in the hardest part of the ROM.

2) you gain full strength benefits in 15 degrees above and below the angle trained, so you are going to be buff daddy on the entire hardest part of HLL if you have a beastly L sit.

L sit is awesome.

Having said that, The original progression I used was decline sit ups until I had 15-20 reps easily with 50 lbs on my shoulders/ chest (NOT STOMACH). After that I did inverted sit ups until I had 15-20 reps with 75 lbs. At that point I was able to just up and do body levers, though they made me sore for a week because I did 10 in a row.

Done over again I think these two done simultaneously would be smart, and it's probably best to just start with inverted situps right away if you can do them and have a place to do them, though I don't know that for sure.

HLL are a joke for me now, I just need my shoulders to feel better so I can do them regularly.

Slizz to the rescue!

How would you go about L-sit programming? Some strength coaches tend to favor a max hold of 10 seconds. Beyond that something weird happens with body mechanics and you don't really gain anything, rather just fatigue the muscles worked. That might of course be hoohaw, but I've found that when I stick with 5-10s max holds I progress through movements much faster.

Would it be sensible to go for 10 second holds while adding weight on top of the ankles? Awesome input. I think I'll go for a mixture of L-sit work and inverted siups as my "back-off" work after Jandas. Thanks for the response!

Khassera said:

Standing wheel rollouts, are awesome. It is very difficult, however, to measure progress when you've made it to doing 1-5 reps with a full range of motion. To add weight would compromise form due to the movement: It's not strictly for the abs.

I don't get what you mean. Hypothetically, let's say you've made it to 5 reps with a full range of motion and perfect form, perfect form meaning completely locked out arms and legs throughout the whole movement. What prevents you from a) using a tight fitting weighted vest or b) using a decline surface, like a hill? Both make the movement harder. But I don't see why it would compromise form. Please explain what you mean.

Another option is single leg standing roll outs, it adds an anti-rotational element, which makes the movement more complex. Then you could still use a decline surface or a weighted vest in addition to that.

Hanging leg lifts is another great movement. Adding weight to the ankles works up until your grip gives out. So that's a no-go.

Sorry, that's like saying, "Deadlifts are a great movement for your posterior chain up until your grip gives out. Then they're useless."

That is obviously flawed logic. First of all, your grip gets stronger as you can add more weight to your ankles. Second of all, unless you are adding substantial amounts of weight, your grip should be strong enough to handle some hanging leg lifts with weight added to the ankles, otherwise you need to work on your grip strength.

And thirdly, if you can somehow add so much weight to your hanging leg lifts that your grip just can't handle the load, you could always use straps or hooks.

L-sit holds are great, they build crazy strength in the abdominals, but the range of motion is 0, so you've got a lot of strength on the static position, but it doesn't carry that much into the full range of motion.

Agree with Slizzardman.

Any thoughts on good abdominal exercises? This is largely due to the fact that I'm starting a mass-gaining phase in my training, and looking for movements I can easily measure progress in. Oh yeah: Holding the lockout position of a deadlift in a smith-machine is a great static core drill, but that also requires grip strength..

How about in addition to L-sits (and possibly standing roll outs or hanging leg lifts :wink: ), do some ankle-weighted hollow holds? Compared to L-sits, they train a different position of the range of motion.

V-up with ankle weight are great :wink:

I briefly (for two workouts) played with putting weights on my feet and hands in all sorts of combinations and it definitely makes the hollow hold a whole new challenge! I didn't stick with it so I have no idea what the long or short term results would be, but they would probably not be bad if you kept good form!

Oh ankle weighted v-ups good ideas! Must try. Ab works been mostly various l sits and manna work. HLL is sadly pretty easy now unless I add 15+. I really should do more straddle work I am weaker there even when lowering from HS.

Ya just need to do some harder HLL. Those russian HLL against the stall bar come to mind where you lever down. HLL to candle.

Best core exercise? We could go on and on about but a 360 pull or skin the cat is pretty good. It's one of those exercises that can be said to work everything, anterior core and lower back. It does get limited by grip strength and pull strength though. If your grip and pull is weak, well that's not so good for any gymnast.

To be honest the best work out for the abs I've found is (if you can do a backtuck) go outside and set a 10 min timer and do as many backs as you can in the time with as little time in between as possable... take a 3 hour break and do it for 5 mins then you'll be sore for a week or so based on your level

Yes, series of back tucks can shred your abs for awhile if you don't any in volume in awhile. Same with tumbling.

It's because there is contract-stretch-contract, all done in a very short time period.