Weak link: Scapula

Hi everybody

I think one of my weak links is my scapula retractors, especially my lower traps. I'm not really sure how to diagnose it, but the lower tip of my scapula is "winging", i.e. pointing a bit out.

I've been doing Ido's Shoulder and Scapula routine as a part of my warmup for some time, but I don't feel like it does the job. It might be that I just need some variation... I have found some exercises I think could help, but I'm not sure how to set up the set/rep scheme, if some of the exercises are better than others etc. The exercises I have found are: cuban press, HS shrug, inverted hand shrug, dead hand shrug, bulgarian row and wall extensions.

I think it would be good to put the routine in my warmup, but it would be overkill do do all the exercises everytime.

Are there other helpful exercises? Have you experienced the same weak link and how did you tackle it?

Any comments are most welcome.

I was in the same situation not long ago - terribly kyphotic, winging scapulae and all sorts of postural issues going on. The muscles surrounding my scapulae were chronically burnt out, and progress was slow.

These are the strength exercises I used to get my scapulae in a better position: Face Pulls, supinated bent-over rows, XR bulgarian rows, wall extensions, manna work and Cuban presses. When I first started doing wall extensions, a single minute of that was actually the most strenous part of my workouts, I was STIFF! As soon as my scapulae caught up however, strength and mobility wise, all pulling motions, planche progressions and muscle-ups felt a lot stronger and my posture has improved radically.

- All these (except for the Manna and Wall Extensions) were implemented in strength workouts, two per day/3 times a week with the same set/rep/rest schemes as the rest of my strength exercises for that day.

- Wall Extensions would primarily be used as part of a warm-ups and cool-downs coupoled with glute bridges and other activation/mobility work. Usually did 3x1-2 minutes of those, 60 sec rest between.

- Manna work was done right after the rest of FSPs, usually 3x20sec (just leaning as far back as I can. Might possibly be compromising eventual progress in the manna by doing this, but it's not that high on my list of goals so I threw it in there ).

As soon as your scapulae gets stronger, it's important to use your newfound strength and flexibility in everything you do. Proper scapula movement during pull-ups, for example, is something I have never had, until now! A side effect of this might be that your numbers go down for a while. I used to have a solid 10sec one-leg-extended Front Lever, but with terrible scapulae position. Now I'm struggling with a basic tuck for more than 10secs, simply because of scapulae failure. I'll keep working on it though, doing it properly this time around

Also, I don't think you should give up on Ido's routines, they are great. Stretching your guns and neck will also do wonders, and I strongly recommend Slizzardman's shoulder video.

Good Luck in your training, buddy

AoB said it pretty well, i'll just add some ideas.

The band work has been one of the things i've had the most success with. For one thing you can have a set of long band and short bands in all ranges of strength and take them any where, use them anywhere and they are very inexpensive.

It may be that you just are using the wrong strength of bands or not finding your movement. I have a student with some serious winging and we tried shrugs and scapula pushups to no avail. I hooked some heavy bands to a wall and had him push and pull them from just the scaps and that was the input he needed to get them functioning.

BE CREATIVE, Ido's routine as it come to be known is the tip of the iceberg, a starter.

Same with Shrugs, find different ways of working them, different angles, hanging from a bar, from a handstand, on PB bars, upside down on rings etc.....

Mr Brady said:

BE CREATIVE, Ido's routine as it come to be known is the tip of the iceberg, a starter.

I guess I haven't been creative in a long time then. If it's not broken, don't try to fix it. But in my case, I don't really know if its broken or not. What am I supposed to see or feel different after say a month of continuous Ido routines. I've definitely profited in a few ways, but I don't quite know if I've already reached the laws of diminishing returns.

There is no supposed to, at least not without knowing you and your history.

If everything is ok, its a warm up or cool down. A way to fill in the holes. If you have a strong balanced shoulder girdle you may not notice anything.

For some they notice that they get more ROM, others, better motor control, more natural movement patterns, others feel more solid, the shoulder gain a deep density.

Personally ny shoulders are crap, so i really have to do this stuff as a warm up, prehab and rehab. However, i like to mix it up, i use bands, dumbbells, kettlebells, indian clubs. What i want to feel is my shoulders are ready for what i'm about to do, i need to blow the cobwebs out before getting heavy. I have a loose program so there are a couple of 'weak link' things i set out to do each session. The warm up i play by how i feel that day.

In the OPs case, its a different matter, he has an issue that needs rehab. That needs a more focused attack.

Thank you very much for your reply.

I follow the WOD and have always felt stronger in press than pull, so I hope these will even out.

How much is manna stessing the scapula retractors? I haven't done any manna work, since I don't meet the 3x30 sec L-sit yet. Would you recommend that I put reverse plank in my warmup?

I'll try to embed those exercises Aob said in my warmup. How does 2x10 sound? I know you said that you used the same set/rep as the rest of your workout, but these exercises are not supposed to be max strength, right? Or would it be a good idea to change the set/ rep scheme so some days have high intensity, low volumen and other days vice versa?

As for the wall extensions I think I'll put 'em as a part of my cool-down 3x1-2 min. Should I do that every workout, or would it fatigue the muscles too much?

For general joint mobility, check out mobilitywod by Kelly Starrett. Search for "distraction" on his site, and you should find some good shoulder stuff =) Eric Cressey has been known as "the shoulder guy" in the strength world, and his writings are absolutely worth a look.

Oh, new post

As far as the manna goes, working on it too soon will stall eventual progress, so if it is one of your goals I suggest you put that one on the shelf for a while. If not, use it. My shoulders feel super awesome after doing them

I'll give you an example of my programming for the strength exercises. I know Ido's said it's a good idea to build up a 50% of bodyweight cuban press, so that's what I'm doing. I'm following Killroy's template, but have substituted the multi-plane day for a straight-arm day, and either day 3 or day 4 are 50% volume days, which one depending on how I feel that particular week.

Day 1:

Warm-up: Dynamic stretching, movement drills, Wall Ext 2x1min/60sec rest and 2x Ido's routines.

A1: Sumo Deads

A2: Cuban Press

B1: Planche Leans

B2: Redcord Hamstring

C1: Front Pulls

C2: GHR

D1: German hangs 3x30 sec/45 sec rest

FSPs:

Planche progression

L-sit progression

Manna work 3x20sec/45-60 sec rest.

Day 2:

Ordinary Killroy day.

None of the prehab strength exercises, just warm-up and cool-down ones.

Day 3:

Warm-up: Roughly the same as Day 1t

A1: Front Squat

A2: Lunges

B1: Box HSPUs

B2: Pull-Ups

C1: Cuban Press

C2: Face Pulls

Day 4: 50%. Max 2 sets/exercise.

A1: Sumo/ordinary Deads

B1: Weighted Dips

B2: Curls

C1: One-legged deadlifts

D1: Cuban Press

D2: Face Pulls

This is only my second week of this cycle, and there need to be a few tweaks. But as far as the prehab strength exercises go, this is roughly it.

I can't answer for you, but I tried doing 3x2 min wall extensions every workout for a while, and it completely killed me. Dropped to 3x1 min, 3 times a week and that was a lot better. I think you're just going to have to experiment a little with this to see what works for you. Something worth remembering though, is that too much is often far worse than a little too little.

I see Eric Cressey more of an elbow guy, but regardless, he's a genius at his work.

I've never confirmed this before, what maybe reverse planks could give some of the benefits that manna gives without jumping like 5 progressions beyond what your capable of. Can anyone confirm on this?

RandomHavoc said:

I see Eric Cressey more of an elbow guy, but regardless, he's a genius at his work.

I've never confirmed this before, what maybe reverse planks could give some of the benefits that manna gives without jumping like 5 progressions beyond what your capable of. Can anyone confirm on this?

Might be. I just remember him refering to himself as "the shoulder guy" in some article.

Agree to the genius part

I've never confirmed this before, what maybe reverse planks could give some of the benefits that manna gives without jumping like 5 progressions beyond what your capable of. Can anyone confirm on this?

I can

Reverse planks on elbows, for time, were revealing for me and seem to be a useful tool for shoulders and back, leaving the triceps aside.

When I began, I could barely hold them for 20s while being able to hold normal plank easy for 1mn30s...

Reverse planck with straight arms feel easier to me (the tension in triceps is maybe helping the shoulders somehow).