HeSPU, Dips, or both...

So my understanding is, in general, it is recommended to have 'decent' dipping strength before working any HeSPU variations. My dipping strength is very weak(3 perfect dips, fresh), so I'm wondering if on HS ladder WOD days I can sub in a dip variation for the HeSPU variations until my dipping strength is sufficient? On those WOD days I do pike push ups, possibly with 1 HeSPU with feet on a chair.

I am also doing other strength work with dips throughout the week including iso's, partials, full, and assist depending....I do follow the WOD's as well. I guess it comes down to: will working on pike push ups,etc. for HeSPU work have much worth/strength gain as opposed to cutting it and focusing on dips.

Thanks for any thoughts.

slizzardman said:

trianglechoke7 said:

--“I believe Coach Sommer has stated than once the hardest dip progressions can be done, you can increase difficulty by using multiplane pressing movements or handstand pushup movements ... you could start weighting the dips as well.†--> For basic strength this is exactly right.

-- Trainers fail to understand how to properly progress through the bodyweight strength progressions; e.g. pushups before dips, dips before HSPUs, German hangs before BL etc.

Just to clarify here... Are we saying that before attempting handstand pushups, bulgarian ring dips should be developed?

Well, I think that what triangle meant is not that you should master all dips before trying HSPU variations, but that you should at least have decent dipping strength, like the ability to do 10 tempo dips on PB, before trying any HSPU or HeSPU work. While you're working on your dips, spend a lot of time doing wall handstands. That will make a big difference all by itself! Make sure you're working stomach to the wall. It forces a better bodyline and is harder on the shoulders and triceps. Once you get your dipping strength up to par and have a solid 45-60s wall handstand with wrists 6" or closer to the wall, you can start working on isometric holds 1/3 of the way down. After a while, when you can do good 10-15s holds there, add in holds at 2/3 of the way down the HeSPU! As long as you don't have shoulder injuries you should be able to do all that 3-4 times per week without problems. When you get to where you have a good 10+s hold 2/3 of the way down you should really have a much easier time developing your HeSPU! You'll only need 2-3 holds at 1/3 and 2/3 per day, spend the bulk of your time on the fully extended wall HS.

There are also Coach's progressions, starting with the elevated HeSPU where your hands are on the floor and you make a stack of books or something for your head to hit, so that you're only doing partial ROM! You should be able to drop down around 1" a month with consistent work. I think these two things together, meaning the isometrics a few times a week and the HeSPU whenever it pops up in the WODS ( once every 8-9 days, it seems, so you can do once a week if you like) should work really well for you.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4313 taken from this post.

EDITED FOR CLARITY

Hey sorry someone came in mid post and I rushed through it without checking and posted.

When you are working with the WODs one of the most important things to aim for is doing the number of reps, the time of the rest periods and tempo of the movements as prescribed. If you are UNABLE to do this using HeSPU variations for the ladder then I would substitute the HsPUs for dips instead, so that you can maintain the correct intensity of your workout (after all it's a workout not a 5 minute of doing an impossible thing then giving up in frustration). As the posts you have quoted say, dips come before HeSPU in difficulty.

If, however, you were not doing the WODs I would not recommend working dips to the exclusion of HeSPU variations. The core and body line elements of HeSPU/HPU variation are great to start building up as early as possible and not are not utilised in the same way in most dipping variations.

To summarise, at your current level of strength I would use dips in your Ladders (perhaps building up to a Negative HeSPU as per Mr Brady's advice below) so that you can follow the WOD as prescribed but I would continue to work the HeSPU variations seperately so that you can progress on those too.

(hope this was a little clearer than my OP)

Thanks for the quick response. Ok, so you're saying overall that you believe better progress would be made doing the HeSPU variations I can in the WOD's, rather than focusing more solely on dipping to build vertical pushing strength prior to moving to HeSPU? Sorry, I was a little confused with your wording. With all the information I have I am still back and forth between which method will have better gains in the long run.

Normally in the WODs when HSPUs come up its in the form of a ladder, so you could use the dips as the first rung of the ladder, then do partial ROM HSPU, box and negative (assisted or partial if its weak). The HSPU will sometimes come up on dynamic push days as well, then you could sub in dips at least until you can kip up.

Good advice from Mr Brady, have cleaned up my post and it now makes a lot more sense ^^^

Many thanks to you both. I will start implementing the advice post haste .

P.S. Is it worthwhile to work HeSPU with feet elevated(i.e. first progression in the book) in a partial ROM or would doing extreme pike push ups(back almost vertical) be better full ROM?

My vote is always complete ROM with the same direction and exercise type. There are earlier progressions to the HeSPU than the ones in the book. If Box HeSPU are too difficult, then yes, extreme pike pushups are a good sub. Try to make sure that you're as verticals as possible. Then if that's too hard, walk your hands out 2-3 feet and that will put you at a 30-45 angle from vertical, allowing your chest to assist a little. Another one I use is to put my knees on an elevated platform, hands on the ground and as vertical as possible.

Again, the key is rep, tempo, and direction as much as possible. IMHO.

J

JmanDetroit-thanks for the reassurance. Also didn't even think of box HeSPU in tuck position, will try that soon.

So my ladder days should be Pike, Dip, box HeSPU tuck depending on how that feels. Ha, I'm sure I will feel good when I'm doing it, forgetting how scaled it is and thinking I'm actually doing 3 rungs.