Please point out flaws in my training routine

Hi, I am 26yrs old, 160lb (72.5kg), 1.84m height with ~11.5% bf. Been training for strength seriously for about 2 years.

(just to point out, before 3-4 years ago I had absolutely no training in gymnastics and before I was 20 years old I was a complete couch potato who did no sports whatsoever, so compared to the average forum poster I'm def. a newbie)

I have been following a paleo diet for the last year, and try to have my biggest meals pre-and post workout, so I think there are no problems on the nutrition/sleep part of training.

I have been trying to build a training program to maximize strength gains while minimize risk of overtraining. I have read several posters recommending very long resting periods for muscle (1 session per week per muscle group), at the same time, I have read that for strength gain, which is my objective (not hypertrophy), the 1-3 rep range per set is ideal for intermediate strength athletes (which is also my case).

This are my last 6 days of training as an example of a typical week:

DAY 1

Chin up 3x10,

Pull ups 3x10,

Weighted swiss ball crunch (10kg) 2x10,

Reverse fly (30kg band) 2x5,

Bicep curl (30kg band) 2x10 each on arm

DAY 2

Ring dips 3x5,

weighted swiss ball crunch (10kg) 2x10,

static handstands (5x 30sec)

DAY 3

Yoga, handstands

DAY 4

Ring Dips (advanced form) 2x3,

HLL static (2x20seg)

Front Lever 2x10sec

DAY 5

Assisted One arm chinups (90 degree angle) 3x3 reps

Weighted pullups (18kg) 2x3 reps

Planche flat tuck (on parallets) 3x10sec hold

L-sit (on parallets) 3x10sec hold

L-sit (on rings) 2x10sec hold

RLL - Wall HS (bad form) 2x3 reps

Wall Runs 2x 1min10sec

Wall Extensions 2x10

DAY 6

15 min HIIT running

10 min random work on rings (german hang, MPPu, L-sit)

My strong points:

good chin up/pull up strength (can chin with 50% added bodyweight), good dip strength, good oblique strength (can hold the flag for 10sec)

My weak points:

Lower back, back lever, can't do a press handstand, very hard to do reverse leg lifts without head support (on a handstand against the wall), planche work is very bad, wrist used to hurt a lot after doing gymnastic skill training (like doing backhandsprings) so I had to stop for the last 6 months and only do strength training (it's gotten better, but still not 100% and I'm afraid of training skill because I don't wanna injure my wrist again)

Questions:

1) How do I better mix exercises for synergistic gains? In BttB's chapter on Integrated training, coach Summers suggests pairing "embedded back work" with it's respective "pulling variations"... what does that mean?

2) How many days of rest for each muscle group?

3) Can it be optimal to do certain exercises every day (or at least 4-5 days of the week) like wall runs, for example? When I go to my local gymnastics training facility, I see many of the top athletes train some exercises (strength, not skill) every day, especially abdominal work (L-sits and stuff) and lots of handstand work...

4) How to better train my weak points.

Thanks!

You are all over the place with your training. If your goal is just strength then your training schedule is a poor reflection of that goal. Examples: why are D1, D3, D6 even in there, 2 sets of an exercise is not something you do for strength unless the frequency for the move is way up, that is something you utilize for maintenance in a strength training template or assistance work work with higher reps.

The way strength training is structured, no matter what your personal philosophy on training is, is always with an inverse relationship of intensity, frequency, and volume. This can be seen from almost every strength training template you can find. You can either train very hard and infrequently with moderate volume or frequently with moderate intensity and low volume or intensely with moderate volume and infrequency or...and so on. Your training doesn't seem to reflect this basic concept and as a result strength gains will come very slowly if at all.

My advice to you would be to follow the WODS or learn the basics of strength training routine design. Some good places to start are: Elitefts.com, t-nation.com, higher-faster-sports.com, defrancostraining.com, 5/3/1 by Jim Wendler, Starting Strength by Mike Rippetoe, Westside for Skinny Bastards Part III by Joe Defranco, Bill Star Heavy, medium, light. There are many many more but looking at these will give you a basic idea of how strength training routines are structured. The downside to making your routine, besides just needing to have to have the knowledge of regular strength training design, is properly applying that knowledge to Gymnastic Strength Training™ which has some obvious differences from weights like progressions and taking joint stress into account.

aoa said:

I have read several posters recommending very long resting periods for muscle (1 session per week per muscle group)

This depends on how you structure your routine, see above on the relationship of frequency, intensity and volume.

aoa said:

...at the same time, I have read that for strength gain, which is my objective (not hypertrophy), the 1-3 rep range per set is ideal for intermediate strength athletes (which is also my case).

Saying everyone at intermediate level should be using 1-3 reps is very short sighted, this depends on a host of other factors and generally speaking the more advanced a trainee is the higher the rep range he will use rather than lower. I believe an intermediate trainee would at the minimum have both the levers mastered, straddle planche, handstand pressing, muscle-ups and all the L-sit variations up to before you begin manna work.

Alex,

Thanks for the reply! The days you mentioned were "active rest days" where I tried to work different muscles than the day before (or work with a very low intensity so as not to overtrain the muscles), and do other stuff like flexibility work (yoga/capoeira type stuff) or cardio (HIIT running).

I need to do some kind of physical activity every day and if I just REST all day long I get so energetic at night that I take hours to get to sleep (insomnia).

Are the WOD's structured in a way that if I follow it every day I wont get overtrained and will gain strength efficiently? I notided that there are only about 4 WODs posted each week, is that to allow for rest days? what does a pro athlete do on a rest day? I mean, I can't imagine this guy doesnt work out every single day of the week SEVERAL HOURS (

I will read the articles on the sites you've indicated! and regarding "manna training", isn't that a skill that only elite athletes can perform (like stated in BttB)? in 4 years of training I went from not being able hold 1 second on an L-sit to over 20 secs on an elevated L-sit (cant do the V yet). Is it remotely possible to train for an eventual achievement of the manna given my age being almost 27 years and only having strated to train recently?

I will be very happy if I can someday hold a straddle planche for 5 seconds and maybe do some L-sit press to handstands.

The problem isn't rest days but disorganization in your routine I was simply pointing out d1, d3 and d6 as the worst ones. Basically as it stands over the course of a week this is what gets done strength wise in your routine:

- Ring Dips - 3x5 and 2x3

- Front Lever - 2x10 secs

- OAC - 3x3

- Planche - 3x10

- RLL - 2x3

Total sets - 6 exercises 15 sets

Compare that to a 3 days per week routine with 3 exercises and 4 sets per exercise and the most basic routine has 9 exercises and 34 sets. Even if I included day 1 in the calculations you would still be way behind.

People make strength gains at all ages, at 27 you should hardly be worrying about not being able to achieve something.

First off congratulations for getting off your duff and doing something. That is the first and perhaps hardest step. And you've kept it up which is a testament to your character (or OCD problem in my case). Now you are looking at fine tuning which shows you are taking it seriously.

As a person who is new to gymnastics I can't comment on that portion of your routine. However in terms of your rest or active recovery days HIIT is by defintion the opposite of rest! I'm assuming that you are just including the actual work portion in the 15 mins, but even if not HIIT defeats the purpose of recovery. It is the hardest cardio you can perform - so why do that on a rest day? Walking or light biking for 30 mins is generally considered active recovery.

Personally I find yoga stressful, and I'm feeling it the next day - but if you find that relaxing perhaps that would qualify as active recovery. I hear you on the sleep thing, but you really should consider one day of complete and total rest. Especially if you end up incorporating the larger volume that AlexX recommends. You will probably welcome it and be tired enough to sleep soundly.

Personally I would consider making 1 day legitimate cardio if you like that, 1 days weight related, 1 day complete rest, 1 day active recovery and 3 days gymnastics based on what alexX is saying. That seems to incorporate the elements you mentioned in a sensible fashion. Of course if you need more recovery you drop something less important.

What do you think?

Futureisnow,

since I do almost no leg work in my strength training, I do very high intensity running (500m sprints followed by walking x 5 times on average) since it also pushes my heart rate way high and presumably this is good for cardio..

from what I read of yours and AleXX's suggestions, I will include 1 total rest day (pure stretching part of yoga maybe, with no strength elements whatsoever) and concentrate my work on fewer days, with more rest in between. (i.e. train very hard, rest 3 days, train very hard again same sets)

aoa said:

Futureisnow,

since I do almost no leg work in my strength training, I do very high intensity running (500m sprints followed by walking x 5 times on average) since it also pushes my heart rate way high and presumably this is good for cardio..

Interval training in the form of sprinting is not a replacement for leg strength work, if leg strength is your goal. It would make as much sense as replacing upperbody strength training with swimming.

AlexX said:

aoa said:

Futureisnow,

since I do almost no leg work in my strength training, I do very high intensity running (500m sprints followed by walking x 5 times on average) since it also pushes my heart rate way high and presumably this is good for cardio..

Interval training in the form of sprinting is not a replacement for leg strength work, if leg strength is your goal. It would make as much sense as replacing upperbody strength training with swimming.

Basically agree although I have heard of world-class track athletes using hill sprints as a form of strength training.

Fighting gravity is the resistance factor. Generally though intervals in the form of you're running them are geared towards adding speed onto an existing endurance base for longer distance runs. A 30s on/off protocol, especially on hills, would tend to get at the fast twitch fibres that you're targeting. However, if you are unable to produce any gains using method, doing

specific leg work, whether free or body weights, as AlexX suggeests is a more common route.

If you like to run of course you should run for whatever reason and whatever the benefit, as long as it doesn't hinder

you doing what else you want. My concern was mainly doing it on a recovery day.

FutureisNow said:

AlexX said:

aoa said:

Futureisnow,

since I do almost no leg work in my strength training, I do very high intensity running (500m sprints followed by walking x 5 times on average) since it also pushes my heart rate way high and presumably this is good for cardio..

Interval training in the form of sprinting is not a replacement for leg strength work, if leg strength is your goal. It would make as much sense as replacing upperbody strength training with swimming.

Basically agree although I have heard of world-class track athletes using hill sprints as a form of strength training.

Fighting gravity is the resistance factor.

Sprinters use hill sprints but not as strength training, they do it as a form of endurance training (akin to sled pulling) and their use is pretty controversial among speed coaches, sometimes they are also used to teach proper technique in sprinting do to the lean required. They can be used as strength training (more like strength speed training but that's another topic) but you'd have to get a sled/vest to keep adding weight (it's not strength training if you can't increase the difficulty) when the hill would get easier or find a steeper hill.

Don't get me wrong sprints are awesome and can be used for a variety of goals (interval training, speed/explosive training/reactive training) but strength training is just not one of them.

Perhaps I mis-stated my point AlexX... it was not that sprinters generally use this as their strength training, but that one who I read about did use it exclusively instead of their leg strength training with weights. Bodyweight exercises can impart strength I have read, lol, and running is one of course. Aoa is not a sprinter, but I am suggesting that if aoa wished to run, a form of running that would impart greater strength than flat 500m, could be hill running. I agree that sled work might also be along those lines, though a sled may be more difficult to find and use than a hill.

One can debate whether it imparts strength speed, power endurance or what not - outside of the lab where it can be measured (perhaps) it will be considered and felt as getting stronger. I feel that's the main point that can get lost in technical details.

I like running hills ... when they are over!

FutureisNow said:

Perhaps I mis-stated my point AlexX... it was not that sprinters generally use this as their strength training, but that one who I read about did use it exclusively instead of their leg strength training with weights. Bodyweight exercises can impart strength I have read, lol, and running is one of course. Aoa is not a sprinter, but I am suggesting that if aoa wished to run, a form of running that would impart greater strength than flat 500m, could be hill running. I agree that sled work might also be along those lines, though a sled may be more difficult to find and use than a hill.

One can debate whether it imparts strength speed, power endurance or what not - outside of the lab where it can be measured (perhaps) it will be considered and felt as getting stronger. I feel that's the main point that can get lost in technical details.

I like running hills ... when they are over!

I didn't say that running hills won't build strength (I said that about interval training) I said it is limited in the form of you can't progress unless you add weight or keep looking for steeper hills (cool way to work up to running up buildings )

If you don't mind could you post a link or perhaps just the name of the sprinter who used hills as strength training. I am not doubting you, I simply never heard of elite sprinters doing this and would like to know more about the methods, progressions, and results obtained.

When I did sprinting I used hill training but it was strictly for technique purposes.

One of the reasons I give less emphasis on leg training is because my fitness objectives require almost no leg work (being able to do planches, handstand stuff, iron cross, muscle ups, flag etc).

I have less of a goal in doing dynamic gymnastics (flips, jumps, etc) because of the impact these skills have on joints (knees, wrists and lower back). After a few weeks training the floor elements of gymnastics I start having pain in these areas... with strength work I can train non stop.

It was a few years ago and not all that detailed but I'll try to find it.

Also if you can check out my post on the getting started page (5 questions) I'd appreciate any input.

Thanks!

FutureisNow,

does hill training elevate heart rate more than flat terrain sprints?

what is the "healthy" heart rate limit to do this kind of training? Is it dangerous to run if breathing becomes erratic and I feel a 'very'minor chest pain?

aoa said:

FutureisNow,

does hill training elevate heart rate more than flat terrain sprints?

what is the "healthy" heart rate limit to do this kind of training? Is it dangerous to run if breathing becomes erratic and I feel a 'very'minor chest pain?

It is generally harder and so I imagine that it will.

Healthy heart limit? I am sure these is a scientific recommendation (and I am sure I was suppose to know it for my testing) but honestly unless you are the type of person that will not quit no matter what and pushes to the point of passing out (never met such a person but apparently some people will) you have little to worry about.

Erratic breathing and chest pains - this is a highly depends question. Obviously from endurance work you'll be out of breath and your lungs will feel like they are on fire to the point of pain or I use to get cramps from doing interval work right in the chest. But if you get a legitimate pain in your chest yeah that's not good.

aoa said:

FutureisNow,

does hill training elevate heart rate more than flat terrain sprints?

what is the "healthy" heart rate limit to do this kind of training? Is it dangerous to run if breathing becomes erratic and I feel a 'very'minor chest pain?

When performing a max HR test they will raise the incine of the treadmill and increase speed. It's certainly quicker

to reach maxHR on an incline, which is important if you're testing folks who have limited leg muscle endurance and/or foot speed.

Have you had a stress test ever? It doesn't usually reach max HR but should determine if you have any underlying conditions. If you're healthy you can then test your Max HR. That way you'll be comfortable elevating it. In general if your heart is not beating

erratically, I wouldn't be very concerned about your breathing, and concentrate on coordinating it with your footsteps. But

certainly listen to what your body is telling you.

AlexX: I couldn't find the old reference to the elite who did use it exclusively but if I run acroos it I will post it.

Edit: I'm pretty sure I was reading about elites training under brad hudson. That's his signature technique as described in the links below. His site is http://www.marathonperformance.com/ .

http://running.competitor.com/2010/10/t ... rints_9050

http://www.marathonperformance.com/2009 ... -strength/

Edit: what is interesting ano is that he recommends doing the hill sprints on a recovery day! But says that these are not to be confused with a hill workout. That is to say the effort is only 10-12 seconds long, and recovery a few minutes in between efforts. He feels this can jumpstart neurological recovery, at least as it pertains to running. I'd be careful about translating this to gymnastics though, unless it's handstand hill sprinting?

Ok, I built 2 new workouts according to my skill level, and will do them spaced out during the week. How are these two new workouts balanced:

WORKOUT 1

Frog stand (3x30sec), Front lever straddled 5x7sec, Lsit (XR) 5x20sec

HeSPU 5x5 , body rows (flat tuck) 5x5 RLL WALL HS 5x5, Side lever pulls 3x each side.

Wall runs 3x1min

Wall Extensions 3x10

WORKOUT 2

Back Lever (flat tuck) 3x20sec and Handstand training (3x30sec holds) L-sit (PB) 3x30

pullups (weighted) 3x3, One arm chinups 3x3, PPP (XR PMP plus) 5x4, dips (XR advanced) 5x4

Wall Extensions 3x10