Tuck FL Shoulder Problem?

The only thing I can think of that caused my minor shoulder irritation is my FL, sometimes it feels a bit odd, like I might be doing something wrong. Anyways, here's side view of my FL, if you can tell anything from this let me know, or if you need another angle.

Umm, where do you feel this irritation?

It's kind of hard to find exactly where it is, seeing as I can't push on the area and feel it, I can only lift my arm and try to get the position where I feel it. Anyways, it's somewhere around here and I feel it when I extend my arms and reach up (dead hang position). Straight out sideways, feel nothing, I can reach as far behind me as possible and no pain, only upwards. Black dot marks the spot.

Tight pectoral muscles maybe ? Thats the problem I had was pulling my right shoulder in and was out of in front lever. :?

Really? I wouldn't doubt I have tight pectoral muscles but it doesn't seem like that's the cause of my problem. Could be though, since I'm far from an expert on these things.

It sounds like impingement to me. Get googling! Also read some of the excellent shoulder posts on the forum and Ido's band routine as a starting point.

In any case do not move into pain! Take care of this before it becomes a real issue.

Ido's band routine is something I'm staying away from at the moment, one of the things that makes me feel it the most actually.

Well after reading up on shoulder impingement I'm about 90% sure that's what it is, think I know someone who can help me out with it at as well, thanks.

Looks like the pain is in the bicipital groove.

FLeXi said:

Ido's band routine is something I'm staying away from at the moment, one of the things that makes me feel it the most actually.

You are right to avoid it if it causes pain.

Out of curiosity, what movements in the routine cause pain?

Any movements over-head. I can't do any movements that involve lifting my arms above my head, other than handstands for some reason. Muscle-ups etc are fine as well because it doesn't have my arms completely straight above my head, there's a bit of a bend in my arms, and being able to turn the rings while doing them helps, if it was a bar I was using I'd probably have some troubles.

That sure sounds familiar. I think the reason handstands are ok is that the head of the humerus is driven down in the shoulder socket, getting out of the pain causing impingement zone.

One thing i worked on was to pull the head of the humerus down in the socket while lifting the arm up. This is one of the nifty tricks that the lats and teres major also help with.

At first it may be best to just lie on you back and bring the hands overhead as far a possible without pain, to begin to teach your shoulders how to move without causing pain.

I found that dumbbell front and lateral raises were very helpful in getting this packing to happen once i could easily get my hands to the floor in the above exercise. At first i could only handle a kilo. The straight arm band pull downs were also very helpful and are one of my almost daily rituals. But again, don't do anything that hurts.

Thanks for the info, I was thinking about working on light shoulder exercises such as the laterals you mentioned, but most likely with the band. Any idea how long this takes to heal up?

3-6 months!

Yeesh, long time. At least I'm not completely limited on my training.

Hey Mr. Brady (sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, Flexi), Do you remember when I PMed you and you thought I had shoulder impingement also?

Anyway, I've been working on Ido's routines and general shoulder packing. I haven't gotten any sharp or severe pain. Recently, however, I was feeling an aching pain after a workout in the same spot that Flexi pointed out in the picture. It was after doing a pretty heavy week of pull ups. I get no pain during the actual movement, but I think its correlated with pain afterwards. Could this lead way to worse problems, and should I start dealing with it before I get pain during actual movements?

Also, what do you think of the video slizzardman posted on shoulder rehab? Its here

It feel like its been so long since I've PMed you...I feel bad for not having my issues done and solved by now. I know what impingement is, but I still don't quite understand how to prevent it- whether its a matter of always keeping form, or strengthening the right muscles to pull the shoulder in place, or getting more flexible, or just never going too heavy to irritate my shoulder

Keeping good form is one of the most important parts of keeping injuries away for sure. From what I saw about impingements, strengthening the shoulder muscles is a big part of healing / preventing this injury as well. Also I'm not sure what others though about slizzardmans video or how they feel after doing the stretches, although it doesn't make a difference in the pain or discomfort of my injury, my shoulders in general feel pretty good after finishing a round of those stretches. That's just my opinion, far from an expert though.

Shoulder maintenance is pretty complicated affair. These deltoid area pains in particular.

A complete maintenance program will include,

ROM work, Slizzardman's video shows some excellent examples of that. The pecs in particular tend to get tight and pull the scapula out of place which in turn will affect the function of the rotator cuff.

Strengthening work. Keeping a good balance between the front body and back body, this doesn't mean it has to be perfect, but within reason.

Patterning work - this is were things like the band routines are excellent, putting the shoulder through a range of movements where the rotator cuff has to be constantly working to center the humerus in socket. This is a skill, at least for those of us who have a great deal of laxity.

Trigger point work - doing self massage looking for trigger points and working them. Trigger points can cause all of the mentioned problems.

Impingement and its treatment is kind of a catch all, as even if the problem is something else the treatment will still help.

As triangle points out it could also be in the case of the OP that the bicep tendon is strained, even the beginnings of a labral tear. Esp considering that it presents in FL. The OP would need to make sure of how to keep the shoulder in socket, if he's hanging on the shoulder joint it could also be a problem. If he's not sure what that means, the patterning work will help to discover the shoulder socket. Always imagine keeping the ball of the humerus centered in the pear shaped disk of the socket.

On the other hand supraspinitis trigger points can also create referred pain in the anterior deltoid, as can scalene trigger points which are often totally overlooked. Front lever can activate these as well and could be the source of the pain.

As for my friend McCems being sorry, no need to be sorry!!!

The bummer is once you have had impingement problems you are more likely to get them again. Or it may be that one part of the overall treatment was missing.

For example the beginning of summer i was up late and started playing with the clubs and dislocates. Wham, next day i knew i was in for 6 months of therapy work. Well that has held true, as my left shoulder is just now getting back to normal. It can happen to anyone, and then you have to heed the warning like it or not. It doesn't mean a total stop but you do have to take care of the situation and be patient, time is the greatest healer and moving too fast the greatest killer.

I for one will be happy when Coach is able to release Liquid Steel™, as there is so much i've learned from him at the seminars that i can't get into on the forums yet. None of it is secret, if you do some research you can find lots of good shoulder stuff. But Coach has created some great routines that have worked wonders.

In my case, i found that certain exercises were key, lateral raise, band pull downs are two. I think the key exercises will vary so its kind of trial and error. Still you will need to have lots of variety in your shoulder rehab as well as the small subset of go to exercises.

I was given some advice on my shoulder impingement by one of the trainers at my gym, lately he seems to be researching/training with re-hab exercises and something called Z Health. I've heard what he does helps a lot, some people had some pretty bad injuries. Anyways, he told me I should be focusing on more pulling movements instead of push/press. Anyone have any comments about this?

it sounds to me just saying 'emphasize pulling over pressing' is overly vague. I've been told that an overemphasis on pressing leads to overdeloped anterior musculature which could put things out of whack, but ideally you would be able to do pressing and just keep it in balance

Thanks for the advice, Mr. Brady. Glad to hear you're shoulders getting back to normal after hurting it over the summer.

I decided to type up a little routine. It doesn't cover everything, and I could certainly add some supplementary exercises (especially strength intensive ones, this doesnt really cover it). Maybe you'll find it useful, too, flexi. Here it is

1. Warm up

Shoulder shrugs

Scapular retraction

Arm circles

2. Thoracic mobility + trigger points

foam rolling, foam roller thoracic extension

tennis ball trigger work

supermans

prone cobra

3. Patterning/strength work

Ido’s band movements (circular movement with arms out, arms up, arms down)

band external rotation

push up plus (scapular protraction)

band dislocations

band pulldowns

4. stretching/ROM

slizzardman’s stretches

How does this look?

Also, does anyone have any resources on trigger point work? I only really know how to work my thoracic back- I usually wedge a tennis ball between my back and the wall and squat up and down to find points. Id like to start also doing my shoulders/chest if that would help

Finally, Ill end this post with a story. I saw some friends today for the first time since going off to college. For some reason, we decided to start wrestling. After a few rounds, someone tripped me and slammed me onto my left shoulder/chest. I feel mostly fine now- I would hate myself if something so stupid (but fun) ended up leading to an injury

Looks good to me.

Here is a TP chart -

http://triggerpointproducts.com/symptomchecker

Basically just look of what feel like either bumps or bands in the muscle and massage them strongly a few strokes, multiple times a day.

I've got a pile of tools my faavorite though is The Original Backnobber II.

FLeXi said:

The only thing I can think of that caused my minor shoulder irritation is my FL, sometimes it feels a bit odd, like I might be doing something wrong. Anyways, here's side view of my FL, if you can tell anything from this let me know, or if you need another angle.

I get the same pain if I chase the Front Lever too hard. Try and hit the infraspinatus hard with a tennis ball. Look here: http://triggerpointbook.com/shoulder.htm. I would also suggest some retraction work to strengthen your retractors.

Good Luck.

That link says tripper points in the infraspinatus can be misdiagnosed as bicipital tendinitis. HA! I said on the first page that the pain seemed to be located in the bicipital groove.

trianglechoke7 said:

That link says tripper points in the infraspinatus can be misdiagnosed as bicipital tendinitis. HA! I said on the first page that the pain seemed to be located in the bicipital groove.

Yeah your comment got me thinking about that in fact.

Trigger points are strange, if you ever get a chance take a look at the real two volume set that Travell and Simons (don't hold me accountable on spelling here) put out. It really is a master piece i'm only just getting into.

That said, i do think the TP people over blow it, in other words, its possible to have a bicep tendon problem and a trigger point so i'm not in favor of just thinking fix the trigger points and don't worry about anything else. Of course, since TPs are only just being accepted, its understandable that the TP community would have to somewhat overstate their case.

Mr Brady said:

That said, i do think the TP people over blow it, in other words, its possible to have a bicep tendon problem and a trigger point so i'm not in favor of just thinking fix the trigger points and don't worry about anything else. Of course, since TPs are only just being accepted, its understandable that the TP community would have to somewhat overstate their case.

This is very true. I am also new to the trigger point therapy ideas. Trigger points are usually on the effect side of the spectrum. You need to get to the cause of the pain, or it will be a grueling cycle of break and fix. I agree that the trigger point community also likes to make everything a result of TPs. Some even believe that dyslexia could be caused by trigger points. :?:

For me, the difference between tendonitis and a TP is relatively simple. A trigger point will pop up after a bout of strenous exercise very quickly and intensely. Tendonitis, which I had a couple time in elbows, slowly builds over time. This is my personal experience so take it for what it is worth.