Too heavy? think again!

slizzardman said:

RandomHavoc said:

AlexX said:

You can gain a very substantial amount of muscle mass on your frame no matter how small it is. However, you also have keep things in perspective if you are a 5'7 small frame person dreams of 300 lbs might not be realized at least not at low body fat levels.

But anyone around 5'7, 5'8 can reach 200 lbs of lean muscle mass. That doesn't mean that it won't take a lot of work, food and time, it will but it's achievable by almost anyone with training.

Aren't there a lot more factors involved? Like bone density? I'm just shy of 5'10, but I don't think its possible for me to be over 170 and stay lean. Scratch that, I don't think I can be over 155 and be lean.

Bone density is over-rated, even if you double bone density (which is not going to happen over the whole body) which would be pretty extreme and possibly impossible, you're only adding like 10 lbs of dry weight. The bones don't get a whole lot bigger, so water weight doesn't factor into increased bone mass to any significant degree.

As many have said before, the only limitations are those you believe in. And gravity. Don't mess with gravity.

"Possibly impossible" haha I like that.

Havoc at 5'10 you should have no problem being at least 210 and lean, I don't mean walking around at 6 percent but 10 - 12 (a legit 10 to 12 percent is pretty lean). I know it seems impossible and if you are below 150 it's going to take a while (unless you have a massive reserve of strength and are just undereating severely). And I am not saying that 210 is like some goal you'll get to in 10 years like a maltese no you should be able to get there within a few years of dedicated training. I am not an expert on mass gain but I've trained with plenty of guys that gained 60+ pounds after concentrating on it. They all had two things in common when they gained weight. They got stronger, they ate a lot. Most guys at 210 and fairly lean will be deadlifting 450+ and bench pressing around 300+ just to give some numbers. I am not sure where the strength would be in terms of ring work because weight kind of works against you there eventually and I don't know too many people who trained to be 200 lbs with ring work (I am not saying it isn't possible just the opposite I am saying people need to get this done).

My goal is to be 200-225lbs (i'm 73in) and proficient at ring strength. Dunno if I'll ever try stuff like swings, but strength moves for sure. At the least a straddle planche and inverted cross.

slizzardman said:

AlexX said:

Bone density is over-rated, even if you double bone density (which is not going to happen over the whole body) which would be pretty extreme and possibly impossible, you're only adding like 10 lbs of dry weight. The bones don't get a whole lot bigger, so water weight doesn't factor into increased bone mass to any significant degree.

As many have said before, the only limitations are those you believe in. And gravity. Don't mess with gravity.

"Possibly impossible" haha I like that.

Havoc at 5'10 you should have no problem being at least 210 and lean, I don't mean walking around at 6 percent but 10 - 12 (a legit 10 to 12 percent is pretty lean). I know it seems impossible and if you are below 150 it's going to take a while (unless you have a massive reserve of strength and are just undereating severely). And I am not saying that 210 is like some goal you'll get to in 10 years like a maltese no you should be able to get there within a few years of dedicated training.

I don't know if I am more shocked to hear that or excited.

I weigh 130lbs. I also thought that my lean maximum potential would be 140. Even 150 would have been surprising. This is truly exciting... in a scary thought provoking way :shock:

Honestly even the most genetically ungifted person (and I've never seen or heard of one) can get to 150 especially at your height. I am not saying it's a walk in the park, the body hates change it wants to keep things the same. But saying that you can't get to 200 lbs with diet, training, and consistent effort would be pretty absurd.

If you want advice pm slizzardman as he is probably the heaviest person on here (that I know of) and I remember reading that he was under 180 before and/or look at websites like t-nation.com, defrancostraining.com and elitefts.com where 200 lbs at your height would be considered small (it really helps to put things in perspective when a 260 lbs guy who deadlifts 600lbs tells you that he was under 160 when he started and there is plenty examples like this on those sites). Between those sources you should have more than enough information on muscle mass gains.

It seems like you just fell for the old stereotype of I am not genetically cut out for this. Lots of people complain of unable to gain weight and say they eat plenty. But after looking at their diets I have never thought wow this guy eats a lot and he is still small, they THINK they eat a lot. When I tell people (skinny guys like under 140) how much they need to eat to gain weight they get floored and think I am kidding around but it really comes down to how badly you want to put the work in.

When I was 17 I was 160. I got up to 182 during senior year of high school and stayed there because that's how I liked it at the time and I was not able to gain weight very quickly. I pretty much stayed the same until I went to Gun School after boot camp. Then I intentionally bulked up to 211 even with a huge, huge training load (working out 6 days a week, 5-700 push ups 5 days a week, weighted pull ups 3x per week, running every single day for time, swimming 5x per week for at least an hour, you name it. My life was eat, sleep, work out. And get 100s on tests. That was it, and I still managed to gain weight. This was, quite honestly, due to A) solid training principles in the weighted portions of the workouts and B) fairly solid nutrition.

My friend Andrew is a wonderful example of someone who was never able to gain weight. He's my height (6'2) and was 145 lbs FOR EVER! Seriously. When we were 25 he and my friend bryan wanted me to help them get bigger. In 4 months he weighed 175 lbs. Bryan gained over 40 lbs, I don't remember his exact numbers. In so many words, as our friends that we only saw every few months told him... " Holy crap! You look like a MAN now!!!" We made mistakes along the way and I believe we could do better if we had the same goal again, but it was pretty much all muscle gain. He is, to this day, 170. He never thought he would be 170 until we got started and he started realizing that with proper nutrition and proper training EVERYONE can get quite a lot bigger and stronger than they are.

Alexx, Slizz, thank you. I needed to hear that.

I'm looking forward coming back from Singapore as a monster. I'm definitely going to make a before/after pic/video to show just how much I will change.

*EDIT: So the fact that I have a very small circumference of my wrist and ankle is not a limiting factor of my weight? Or does that factor go with the genetic part?

Your frame (wrist size and ankle) really only tells you how big or large your frame is. I have the tiniest wrists out of anyone I know (I'd be willing to put that to the test here if there are any takers here and I am fairly certain I'd still have the smallest wrists), yet I don't think 200 lbs is unachievable if that was my goal as I've already been 170 (was 130 in high school before training). A friend of mine has just slightly bigger wrists and he is taller. The guy bulked up from 140 at 6'0 to 230, sure he isn't ripped but that isn't his goal, his goal is to be a deadlifting machine. Another friend has wrists that are well in the large category and the guy without any effort walks around at 200 lbs (not fat but obviously not below 12 percent) he has to DIET down to 180 hahaha oh and he is 5'7. Of course he has a much easier time bulking and putting on mass. (Been trying to get him to powerlift for years but all he does is hot yoga, some people....haha)

In theory yes you are limited to your body's frame in how much muscle mass you can put on but I've never seen this put to the test and like I said even a person with a tiny frame at an average height will still be able to get to at least 200 lbs. I've seen this used as an excuse just like people saying I have a fast metabolism, unless you are 200 lbs and have the wrists of a school girl this just isn't the reason you aren't bigger.

Put your measurements into this calculator.

http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html

My maximum bodyweight at 9% bodyfat is 196 lbs, theoretically, according to this calculator.

This is freaking awesome. I feel like i just blew my mind. I got no excuses to you alexx, but I do have my measurements

Wrist: 13.7 cm or 5.4 inches

Ankle: 18.7 cm or 7.4 inches

Both measured at their narrowest point.

Triangle, here's what I got:

Your estimated maximum muscular bodyweight at ~9% bodyfat is: 175.7 lbs

Your estimated maximum bulked bodyweight at ~9% bodyfat is: 182.7 lbs

Fascinating.

trianglechoke7 said:

Put your measurements into this calculator.

http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html

My maximum bodyweight at 9% bodyfat is 196 lbs, theoretically, according to this calculator.

BTW, I don't think their bodyfat calculator is very good:

The WeighTrainer

Bodyfat/Lean Body Mass Calculator

Gender: male Weight: 130 lbs

Height: 70 in Waist: 29.72 in

Iliac: 30.71 in

Hips: 34.65 in

Your estimated body fat percentage is: 14.2 %

Your estimated lean body mass is: 111.5 lbs

I really don't think I'm over 10%.

RandomHavoc said:

trianglechoke7 said:

Put your measurements into this calculator.

http://www.weightrainer.net/bodypred.html

My maximum bodyweight at 9% bodyfat is 196 lbs, theoretically, according to this calculator.

BTW, I don't think their bodyfat calculator is very good:

The WeighTrainer

Bodyfat/Lean Body Mass Calculator

Gender: male Weight: 130 lbs

Height: 70 in Waist: 29.72 in

Iliac: 30.71 in

Hips: 34.65 in

Your estimated body fat percentage is: 14.2 %

Your estimated lean body mass is: 111.5 lbs

I really don't think I'm over 10%.

Tape tests are never very accurate... Nor are height weight ones

Yeah I've seen that calculator before I always felt that the title of it should be changed to your ideal body weight based on your frame, ten times better than the stupid BMI measurements. However as far as potential muscle mass, trust me you wouldn't have to look very hard (check out most natural bodybuilders) to find a bunch of people that have gained much more than their theoretical limit. Mine is 180 and I was 170 before without dedicating any of my training to hypertrophy work, I simply ate more.

Wrist: 13.7 cm or 5.4 inches

Ankle: 18.7 cm or 7.4 inches

Ok I stand corrected, your wrists are smaller than mine, really didn't think it was possible especially from a taller guy.

AlexX said:

Wrist: 13.7 cm or 5.4 inches

Ankle: 18.7 cm or 7.4 inches

Ok I stand corrected, your wrists are smaller than mine, really didn't think it was possible especially from a taller guy.

Normally, I feel good when I win a competition

RandomHavoc said:

Alexx, Slizz, thank you. I needed to hear that.

I'm looking forward coming back from Singapore as a monster. I'm definitely going to make a before/after pic/video to show just how much I will change.

*EDIT: So the fact that I have a very small circumference of my wrist and ankle is not a limiting factor of my weight? Or does that factor go with the genetic part?

Having smaller bones doesn't mean all that much, you should have seen Davis. I have never seen a guy with wrists or just a frame that small in general, but he was superbeast. I thought he was 180 at least, but he was 162 at 5'9. He was also seriously not over 8% bf.

I think the best thing for you to do will be, quite simple, to eat every 3 hours whether you are hungry or not, and eat as much healthy food (fruit, meat, veggies, protein powder) as you can each sitting without making yourself sick. This will change from day to day, but as long as you're eating like this you're going to gain muscle steadily as long as you are training. That is without following the workout nutrition guide. You throw THAT in, and who knows what will happen? If you were here with me I am quite positive that I would have you at 170-180 by summer(end of June), and that's if you were the worlds hardest gainer. I mean that's like 4-5 lbs per month. Well within the grasp of any non-steroid user. Seriously. I really think that you are going to be fine as long as you eat and eat and eat, and all the food is healthy, whole foods or protein powder. Obviously protein powder should not be the predominant part of your diet lol!

I am not screwing with you, you can do this.

Thank you guys, this is all very reassuring to read. I am of the skinny variety (1.80m/67 kg or 5'11"/148 lbs, probably around 7% BF) and I would love to gain some mass. Life's quite hectic right now so I gave up on trying to squeeze the WODs in but I plan on implementing German Volume Training, bodyweight-style once my girlfriend and I moved to our new apartment and the proverbial dust has settled. I hope that the GVT, combined with FSPs and single round WODs as my warm-up and Slizz's nutritional PWO guidelines will help me gain mass, work capacity, and a bit of strength. I'd like to try and reach 165-170 lbs. After that, I will revert to the full WODs.

I've not created a workout log so far because all I did was follow the WODs but I will do so when I start the GVT (with before and after photos, of course). Should be fun!

We have about the same stats bio.

I'm not quite ready to try GVT, but have the same goal of getting to 170, though i don't feel at my age trying to slap it on too fast is wise or i suspect it will just be fat, i'm hoping for an honest 20 lean pounds / year so that's about 1.7 pounds each month.

Let's all of us skinny guys keep posting our progress from time to time - Good Luck!

I'm very curious to see where we both end up, Cole! As for the GVT - it's going to be hard. Just to get an idea how hard, I tried to do 10x10 regular pushups with strict 60s rest breaks in between. I failed. I know I'm an absolute beginner in terms of GB strength training but I don't consider myself super weak. But after the sixth or seventh set I just had to quit because my arms felt like collapsing. I'd never felt something like this before when training it's really the short rests in between that are killing.

You're best off doing those 7 sets then, and finishing up on your knees or something for the last 3. Over time you'll be able to do 10. Remember, do about a full month of either WODs or something else that is very different from GVT between cycles. I think WODs are probably the best thing to take a break with and certainly the best thing to go back to once you have built up some size.

Also keep in mind the more of a strength reserve you have the better GVT will work. To quote Dan John "Lift heavy weight for high reps." People with a large strength reserve (pound for pound) that are small and do a few months of volume work with enough caloric intake blow up like balloons.

How would you quantify 'strength reserve'?

Yea sorry I guess that isn't very clear. A strength reserve is simply how strong you are for your size. At 160 deadlifting 400 and benching close to 300 would show a great possibility for hypertrophy gains. Who do you think will get bigger faster the guy at 160 doing 350 for reps of 8-10 or the guy at 160 doing 225 for reps of 8-10? I am not sure if you lift weights and ring work exercises would be kind of hard to quantify what a reserve of strength is, but as an example my goals at the moment are to add calories and volume once I get a one arm chinup and a 5 sec front lever, to go back up to 170 lbs.

There are millions of examples of former light weight class powerlifters and olympic lifters retiring and then gaining a ton of mass and doing bodybuilding shows. They can easily transition because they have a huge strength reserve.

I see what you mean. Well, I don't lift weights so I have no clue we'll just have to see how it goes.

AlexX said:

Yea sorry I guess that isn't very clear. A strength reserve is simply how strong you are for your size. At 160 deadlifting 400 and benching close to 300 would show a great possibility for hypertrophy gains. Who do you think will get bigger faster the guy at 160 doing 350 for reps of 8-10 or the guy at 160 doing 225 for reps of 8-10? I am not sure if you lift weights and ring work exercises would be kind of hard to quantify what a reserve of strength is, but as an example my goals at the moment are to add calories and volume once I get a one arm chinup and a 5 sec front lever, to go back up to 170 lbs.

There are millions of examples of former light weight class powerlifters and olympic lifters retiring and then gaining a ton of mass and doing bodybuilding shows. They can easily transition because they have a huge strength reserve.

I would say this depends a little bit though...

Is the guy doing 350 for reps trained? How long has he been working out lifting? What about the other guy? If the guy doing 350 has been doing it for over a year, and the guy doing 225 has never weight lifted before, the guy doing 225 has the potential to gain a lot more very quickly. Novice gains can be very substantial, and someone lifting right and eating right (like 6,000kcal/day) can easily add 60lbs in 60 months (while adding significant numbers to all of his lifts) , and have a good 2/3 of that be lean mass. On the other hand, the guy who has been lifting for a year has likely exhausted his newbie potential, and while he certainly can still gain, it will be at a much slower rate.

AlexX said:

Also keep in mind the more of a strength reserve you have the better GVT will work. To quote Dan John "Lift heavy weight for high reps." People with a large strength reserve (pound for pound) that are small and do a few months of volume work with enough caloric intake blow up like balloons.

Agreed. It also follows that bigger muscles tend to get stronger faster. This is at least partly due to the structural proteins already being in place due to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, so all that has to be synthesized are contractile proteins.

Yet another reason why, especially when looking to get bigger, you should cycle between hypertrophy and strength phases but always maintain whatever you are not focusing on. This is one of the greatest strengths of the WOD template. It always allows for maintenance of all abilities, so if you are focusing on one particular area with additional work you can still maintain everything else without a bunch of planning.

Nick_EOD said:

AlexX said:

Yea sorry I guess that isn't very clear. A strength reserve is simply how strong you are for your size. At 160 deadlifting 400 and benching close to 300 would show a great possibility for hypertrophy gains. Who do you think will get bigger faster the guy at 160 doing 350 for reps of 8-10 or the guy at 160 doing 225 for reps of 8-10? I am not sure if you lift weights and ring work exercises would be kind of hard to quantify what a reserve of strength is, but as an example my goals at the moment are to add calories and volume once I get a one arm chinup and a 5 sec front lever, to go back up to 170 lbs.

There are millions of examples of former light weight class powerlifters and olympic lifters retiring and then gaining a ton of mass and doing bodybuilding shows. They can easily transition because they have a huge strength reserve.

I would say this depends a little bit though...

Is the guy doing 350 for reps trained? How long has he been working out lifting? What about the other guy? If the guy doing 350 has been doing it for over a year, and the guy doing 225 has never weight lifted before, the guy doing 225 has the potential to gain a lot more very quickly. Novice gains can be very substantial, and someone lifting right and eating right (like 6,000kcal/day) can easily add 60lbs in 60 months (while adding significant numbers to all of his lifts) , and have a good 2/3 of that be lean mass. On the other hand, the guy who has been lifting for a year has likely exhausted his newbie potential, and while he certainly can still gain, it will be at a much slower rate.

haha you are looking too much into my very basic example. Of course what you say is valid but I was simply making a comparison between too similar individuals in my mind guy A was someone who took up weights just for hypertrophy and was at 160 and guy b a powerlifter that decided to gain weight also at 160. Usually the powerlifter would be quite a bit stronger at the same bodyweight and have more potential than someone who limited their training only to hypertrophy work.

Slizz for bigger guys getting stronger faster I always though it was the chicken or the egg type thing. Are they getting stronger faster because they are bigger or because they usually strength strained before to get that big. Of course the more muscle tissue you have the more strong you'll be at least for the simple reason that you have more muscle area to contract. On the other hand I really haven't looked too much into sacroplasmic hypertrophy as I am a bit of simpleton and like real world examples over scientific ones (although I still read quite a bit scientific literature on strength training). I'd be curious to hear your theories on hypertrophy and strength training as you seem to have looked into it a lot more extensively then me but I guess that's for another time (it seems that hypertrophy is even less understood then strength adaptations are, at least in the scientific community).