Started by chingyvang, October 15, 2010 · 23 Replies · 21,366 Views
I've seen lots of people on youtube start off the front lever by bending their arms to help pull their waste above shoulder level and then let their waist settle to shoulder level before straightening out their arms. I have a problem bringing my waste to shoulder level without bending my arms first.
So is it cheating to bend your arms to help boost your waist up? Or is it ok?
As long as when you are actually in the static position, you have your arms locked, however you want to get there is up to you 
However pulling to the FL with straight arms can be a good exercise in itself, and (don't quote me on this) could even be used as a FL progression.
Newguy said:As long as when you are actually in the static position, you have your arms locked, however you want to get there is up to you
great to here because it's impossible for me to get to the FL position without bending my arms and pull-uping myself up. Ok i'm ready to start my official FL training
If you're not strong enough to do a pull to front lever with locked arms I recommend starting from an inverted hang and lowering in. The reason you bend your arms on the pull is because it adds pressure to the elbows and your body will instinctually bend to escape. Using this approach will not get you stronger in this movement as bending the arm DOES NOT transfer to straight arm work. Try working negatives until you can perform the pull locked.
Also remember not to hang on the straight arms, rather to actively pull from the back so the scapula are coming closer together.
And (just to make sure) you aren't trying to do full FL yet , are you? Because that would explain a lot 
But if you are having trouble to pull into a tuck FL with straight arms then lowering from inverted hang is the way to go. And indeed, pull your scapulae together.
biomieg said:And (just to make sure) you aren't trying to do full FL yet , are you? Because that would explain a lot
No I'm just trying the FL tuck. Ok thanks for the advice guys,
I forget who critiqued me on this, I think it was Gregor, but in the FL you want to be always trying to touch your hips with your hands, which means you have to be pressing down actively while you're keeping the straight arms and retracting the shoulders. That downward pressure is what will build the strength you are going to need to move forward through the progressions. If you don't work on that you will probably be stuck at an advanced tuck for a looooooong time.
slizzardman said:I forget who critiqued me on this, I think it was Gregor, but in the FL you want to be always trying to touch your hips with your hands, which means you have to be pressing down actively while you're keeping the straight arms and retracting the shoulders. That downward pressure is what will build the strength you are going to need to move forward through the progressions. If you don't work on that you will probably be stuck at an advanced tuck for a looooooong time.
To clarify, because I have been unsure of this, I am supposed to be pulling my scapula together, like correct bench press form (was told to think of squeezing a pencil between my shoulder blades)? Or are the shoulders forward and scapula rotated outward (top of a scapula push up)?
Nick: like correct bench press form, you can see it right away: if the front lever is flat it's correct, but if it's hollow scapula is not retracted and it's wrong technique.
Razz said:Nick: like correct bench press form, you can see it right away: if the front lever is flat it's correct, but if it's hollow scapula is not retracted and it's wrong technique.
Alright thanks, I had been confused and been doing both, lol. I figured that way at least I got it right half the time. Man, this seminar is gonna be crucial, I am sure my form is messed up all over the place.
slizzardman said:I forget who critiqued me on this, I think it was Gregor, but in the FL you want to be always trying to touch your hips with your hands, which means you have to be pressing down actively while you're keeping the straight arms and retracting the shoulders. That downward pressure is what will build the strength you are going to need to move forward through the progressions. If you don't work on that you will probably be stuck at an advanced tuck for a looooooong time.
My problem exactally 
. And there are a couple of others (Marlon and Razz come to mind) who's FL progress looks far behind everything else. I think the scapula issue deserves a bit more attention than it gets.
Yes, and ti be fair it is a hard movement. Some of us are much stronger there. I do believe that weighted pull ups, provided they are done with correct form, are one of the keys to building the strength for a full lay.
Slizzardman said:... I do believe that weighted pull ups, provided they are done with correct form, are one of the keys to building the strength for a full lay (FL)...
I am not convinced that weighted pull-ups are necessary.
After retiring from collegiate gymnastics, and never having done weighted pull-ups EVER, when I began weight lifting I immediately achieved bodyweight pull-ups plus 25 kgs (55lbs) . Interestingly depite continuing to train weighted pull-ups for years after that, I did not achieve a significant increase in my weighted pull-ups until I stopped training weighted pull-ups and begin focusing on assisted OAC; at which time my weighted pull-ups jumped to bodyweight plus 34 kgs (75 lbs) over the course of a 1-2 months.
Bottom line: if you are not progressing in maximal strength at the rate you would prefer, you are probably simply using the wrong progressions.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
Right now I'm doing much less FL work than usual and much more pullup/rope climb work. Follow my log to see how my FL evolves in the next month or two!
That's a really interesting point, Coach, and I think that is almost certainly true. I never did any OAC training, so I don't have any first hand knowledge as to how that would affect the FL.
I base this off of a few people following my recommendation a while ago for the weighted pull ups and seeing very fast progress in the FL, and on my high level of weighted pull up strength being a big factor in why I got to a full lay so quickly (along with already having a strong body lever), but I would not be surprised if OAC would accomplish the exact same thing for the FL and certainly much more for the elbows.
As I continue to heal, I will be slowly starting OAC progressions. I do think that the progressions for FL that Razz will learn from you in Mallorca are going to be the best way. They are certainly working for me!
Animalonfire said:slizzardman said:I forget who critiqued me on this, I think it was Gregor, but in the FL you want to be always trying to touch your hips with your hands, which means you have to be pressing down actively while you're keeping the straight arms and retracting the shoulders. That downward pressure is what will build the strength you are going to need to move forward through the progressions. If you don't work on that you will probably be stuck at an advanced tuck for a looooooong time.My problem exactally
I completely agree about scapula strength and mobility needing more attention! After being stuck at advanced tuck FL for a long time I've finally stepped back. I'm doing lots of rotator cuff work, scapula mobility work, and started working on tuck front levers with emphasis on scapula retraction and locked elbows. I'm about 9 weeks into my training cycle after making those changes and I'm finallly able to hold my FL correct form for all of my sets. It's amazing because the position feels totally different now that i've begun to fix those weak links. In the past, I've felt pretty much all of the stress right on my rear deltoids when working on front levers, with hardly any recruitment from my back. Now that I'm actually strong enough to keep my shoulder down and in place I can actually feel my back working and the position is so much stronger, much more stable, and I can actually see myself making consistant progress on my front lever for the first time 
On top of that I'm seeing some very significant muscular development in my upper back as well as much improved posture
I really should focus more on FL.. My form has gotten better lately and core strength also improved (I think this was a limiting factor and still is) but after the seminar I'm determined to get my FL! 
Playing with some ideas and numbers, it's been hypothesized that a FL requires the ability to do a BW+70%BW weighted pullup. It could be up to 80% though. OAPU/CU require something similar if I remember that thread. I'd have to ask eshlow again, it's been awhile.
FL requires lots of pull strength besides strong core.
I remember that thread Blair, it sounds quite reasonable aswell.
I've seen it here, on PerformanceMenu, probably on CrossFit's forums, and maybe even on the old Drills&Skills forums.
It will depend on your levers too. I have long legs and short torso, proportionally, which will make the front lever much harder than someone with long torso/short legs.
It's interesting the discussion about OAC and front lever, as I have personally found something different. I am good with OAC negatives and can perform a cirque a la Dillon in the video, and can perform at least 4 10 sec OAC negatives on each arm without rest, yet my front lever is not great and something that I'm dissapointed in. However I have a friend who cannot perform a negative OAC and yet he has a very solid full front lever. I'm not sure what this means (Perhaps my scapula retraction strength is my real limiter) but it is interesting that other people have found the exact opposite.
Yeah, I can do chin ups with app 80 pounds added, but I am still at a tuck FL going on advanced tuck for a few seconds.
What i do find interesting is that i struggle alot with wide grip L pullups in the bottom position. When i hang in the L position I feel a great stretch in my shoulder girdle that's really hard to pull past, but once I'm past the rest of the pull up is easy.
The reason I mention this is a feel the FL mostly in my shoulder/lat area and not at all in my core, in very much the same position as L pullups. So it could be a scapular retraction thing.