Pullup questions

Hi guys,

I have a few pullup questions. Everyone please feel free to pick whatever question(s) you wish to answer out of the grabbag

1.) I seem to be stagnating at 8-9 max reps on my first set (or 1 rep at 40lbs added weight). I've been doing about 20-30 - and more recently 30-40 - pullups per day (and a few max rep sets of pushups). What sort of training programme would you recommend to up this? More volume? More weighted pullups? More variation between chin/pull and wide/narrow grip?

The usual recommendation would probably be GTG but I can only work out during the evenings. Is GTG still applicable if I can't train throughout the day, or would you rather do a bunch max rep sets than training at less-than-max intensity per set? I have to admit it is very hard for me to resist the temptation of going to failure! I stop 1 rep short of failure on at least 2 sets per day, but then again I do get 18-20 hours of recovery during weekdays.

2.) I always do full dead hang pull ups with fully extended arms and 1 second or so break at the bottom. I was under the impression that this is the cleanest and most intense way, but I seem to get 2-3 fewer reps if I do not have such a break, i.e. immediately pull up again after fully extending arms. It does not seem to be due to countering swing or something like that. Should I skip the clear break, is it cheating?

3.) For me there seems to be an absolutely linear relationship between weighted and normal pullups: If I add 4.5lbs, I can do 1 rep less. If I take away 4.5lbs, I can do 1 rep more. From this stance it doesn't seem to matter whether I train for normal reps or weighted ones because they scale the same. If I learn to do 5 more normal reps by doing normal reps, I can probably carry 5x4.5 = 22.5lbs more added weight automatically! Will this strength relationship break if I do weighted pullups exclusively for an extended period of time, or will it break in higher rep regions like 15-20 reps?

Thanks a lot for your time everyone!

CBB said:

Hi guys,

I have a few pullup questions. Everyone please feel free to pick whatever question(s) you wish to answer out of the grabbag

1.) I seem to be stagnating at 8-9 max reps on my first set (or 1 rep at 40lbs added weight). I've been doing about 20-30 - and more recently 30-40 - pullups per day (and a few max rep sets of pushups). What sort of training programme would you recommend to up this? More volume? More weighted pullups? More variation between chin/pull and wide/narrow grip?

The usual recommendation would probably be GTG but I can only work out during the evenings. Is GTG still applicable if I can't train throughout the day, or would you rather do a bunch max rep sets than training at less-than-max intensity per set? I have to admit it is very hard for me to resist the temptation of going to failure! I stop 1 rep short of failure on at least 2 sets per day, but then again I do get 18-20 hours of recovery during weekdays.

2.) I always do full dead hang pull ups with fully extended arms and 1 second or so break at the bottom. I was under the impression that this is the cleanest and most intense way, but I seem to get 2-3 fewer reps if I do not have such a break, i.e. immediately pull up again after fully extending arms. It does not seem to be due to countering swing or something like that. Should I skip the clear break, is it cheating?

3.) For me there seems to be an absolutely linear relationship between weighted and normal pullups: If I add 4.5lbs, I can do 1 rep less. If I take away 4.5lbs, I can do 1 rep more. From this stance it doesn't seem to matter whether I train for normal reps or weighted ones because they scale the same. If I learn to do 5 more normal reps by doing normal reps, I can probably carry 5x4.5 = 22.5lbs more added weight automatically! Will this strength relationship break if I do weighted pullups exclusively for an extended period of time, or will it break in higher rep regions like 15-20 reps?

Thanks a lot for your time everyone!

I don't think the relationship will remain linear as you become stronger.

I also wouldn't start with weighted pullups yet. No offense intended, but 8-9 max rep and pullup + 40lbs is not very impressive. I do think you've jumped the gun on weighted methods, you can still milk far more with bodyweight only methods. Just the book again and understand the methodology in place. Make your progression hard enough so you can only do 5. That should be enough for now to get you well started.

Thanks for your advice!

Indeed I have made barely any progress since February, but I also had a leg injury which required me to walk on crutches for quite some time in which I wasn't really compelled to do much more than 1-2 max rep sets per day (if at all).

A month or two ago I've been upping the volume to 30-40 reps per day divided into mostly max rep sets, and mostly done throughout the evening, but I'm not really seeing improvements. Perhaps a tiny bit.

I've decided to grease the groove now - as far as what little free time I have permits. I'm going to do something more like 100 reps rather than 30-40 reps a day now, and in 5 rep sets rather than max rep sets. (I'll do 60-70 first, then 70-80, then 100 because I'm a bit afraid of getting elbow tendonitis).

As for weight - Most say it is OK to add so much weight that you're still able to do 4-5 reps, and I've mostly been doing that (usually I use 25lbs - just did that 40lbs test the day before yesterday). Though, yes, lately I mostly did bodyweight and only use extra weight every other day or so.

If you are seriously training every day then that is the problem. Take at least 2 rest days each week off from pullups. Change your grip for each set, they all work slightly different muscle groups.

Is your goal increased strength or increased endurance? If your looking for strength then do weighted or harder variations.

Hmm, are you sure about overtraining? As I said, my volume wasn't particularly high in many months, just 30-40 reps lately (AT MOST! Usually fewer) per evening, with 18-20 hours rest. My impression was that I may not have been training enough.

My next goal is the muscle up. Personally, I'm fine with 10 pullups max, but I have been told that the muscle up requires more reps before you have enough strength and endurance.

At 8-9 reps I feel very clearly that I'm not strong enough for explosive pullups and false grip pullups yet. I hear you should be capable of doing 15-20 pullups before you are strong enough for advanced muscle up progression exercises, so I was thinking it can do no harm if I go up to 15-20 reps, and then maybe more weighted, etc.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?

As I said, I was looking to grease the groove now (unless you'll provide a good reason not to), and I already did 70 reps total in 5 rep sets today and I'm feeling fine.

Thanks!

If you did 70 in 5 sets that's 12 or 13 reps per set is that your actual max?

So I am not saying not to do lots of volume I'm just saying to also have more rest. I'd be willing to bet you'd have better results with a bit more volume or intensity on fewer days with less chance of injury.

For the muscle up beyond some basic pullup and dip strength the main thing you need to work on is the transition and elbow joint conditioning. Look up slizzardmans Russian dip thread.

As soon as you can do a few pullups you can(and should) start working on your false grip.

Its honestly going to take a long time to get 20 non kipping good form pullups, especially without doing weighted versions. Are you a small light Guy? If so it will be easier.

CBB said:

Hmm, are you sure about overtraining? As I said, my volume wasn't particularly high in many months, just 30-40 reps lately (AT MOST! Usually fewer) per evening, with 18-20 hours rest. My impression was that I may not have been training enough.

My next goal is the muscle up. Personally, I'm fine with 10 pullups max, but I have been told that the muscle up requires more reps before you have enough strength and endurance.

At 8-9 reps I feel very clearly that I'm not strong enough for explosive pullups and false grip pullups yet. I hear you should be capable of doing 15-20 pullups before you are strong enough for advanced muscle up progression exercises, so I was thinking it can do no harm if I go up to 15-20 reps, and then maybe more weighted, etc.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?

As I said, I was looking to grease the groove now (unless you'll provide a good reason not to), and I already did 70 reps total in 5 rep sets today and I'm feeling fine.

Thanks!

Even at Navy SEAL training, where we got pushed harder than pretty much everyone on earth, there are 2 rest days: Saturday and Sunday. You NEED THEM.

It's not wrong to do the weighted training OR the BW only training, but if I were you I would completely change how you are training.

I'm going to share with you the story of how I went from 8 to 17 perfect BW pull ups in 3 months. Now, I was 190 lbs at the time and 6'2" so I wasn't super small. The first step was mastering 5 sets of 5 pull ups with 30-60s of rest. Each set was a different grip. Close, wide, regular pull up,regular chin up, and parallel. After that it was 2 rounds of 7 reps per grip, with 30-60s between grips. It took me about a month to get that down. After THAT it was 2 rounds of 10 reps per grip, and a sixth grip was added: close grip chin ups. That took me about another 2 months. It was VERY tough.

You know how many times a week I worked pull ups? Three. Yea. That dropped to two times a week for the 10 rep sets, with a third day just being one set of max pull ups.

I haven't known anyone that hasn't had similar success with the same program, it's straight from Stewart Smith's 12 Weeks to BUD/S program. If you are trying to specifically build pull ups, there is not a better way. It doesn't matter whether you do this with rings or a bar, you simply have to have enough rest and build up progressively.

I DID find that I was stuck around 20 pull ups, and THAT did not change until I started doing weighted pull ups. I would add 5 lbs and do 3 sets of 15 pull ups. Every time I achieved that goal I added 5 more lbs and stayed at that weight until I could do the 3 sets of 15. After 4 months I was doing 3 sets of 15 reps with 45 lbs! That's pretty darn good. I was doing around 30 BW pull ups, one of the top scores in my class. Unsurprisingly, I was easily one of the best big guys on the obstacle course. Pull ups are really important. I was 211 lbs at the end of that 4 month training period. The weight gain was about half muscle and half fat, which was on purpose.

Again, I did that 2-3x per week. 3x one week, 2x the next week, and so on. I just alternated. It worked beautifully. I had many pull up challenges from marines and other BUD/S students and I didn't lose any, despite being the heavier man.

That is not only my experience, but the experience of every single person who has followed that program under my supervision. It does not fail. Your personal gains in numbers are hard to estimate, but they will be quite impressive.

slizzardman said:

CBB said:

Hmm, are you sure about overtraining? As I said, my volume wasn't particularly high in many months, just 30-40 reps lately (AT MOST! Usually fewer) per evening, with 18-20 hours rest. My impression was that I may not have been training enough.

My next goal is the muscle up. Personally, I'm fine with 10 pullups max, but I have been told that the muscle up requires more reps before you have enough strength and endurance.

At 8-9 reps I feel very clearly that I'm not strong enough for explosive pullups and false grip pullups yet. I hear you should be capable of doing 15-20 pullups before you are strong enough for advanced muscle up progression exercises, so I was thinking it can do no harm if I go up to 15-20 reps, and then maybe more weighted, etc.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?

As I said, I was looking to grease the groove now (unless you'll provide a good reason not to), and I already did 70 reps total in 5 rep sets today and I'm feeling fine.

Thanks!

Even at Navy SEAL training, where we got pushed harder than pretty much everyone on earth, there are 2 rest days: Saturday and Sunday. You NEED THEM.

It's not wrong to do the weighted training OR the BW only training, but if I were you I would completely change how you are training.

I'm going to share with you the story of how I went from 8 to 17 perfect BW pull ups in 3 months. Now, I was 190 lbs at the time and 6'2" so I wasn't super small. The first step was mastering 5 sets of 5 pull ups with 30-60s of rest. Each set was a different grip. Close, wide, regular pull up,regular chin up, and parallel. After that it was 2 rounds of 7 reps per grip, with 30-60s between grips. It took me about a month to get that down. After THAT it was 2 rounds of 10 reps per grip, and a sixth grip was added: close grip chin ups. That took me about another 2 months. It was VERY tough.

You know how many times a week I worked pull ups? Three. Yea. That dropped to two times a week for the 10 rep sets, with a third day just being one set of max pull ups.

I haven't known anyone that hasn't had similar success with the same program, it's straight from Stewart Smith's 12 Weeks to BUD/S program. If you are trying to specifically build pull ups, there is not a better way. It doesn't matter whether you do this with rings or a bar, you simply have to have enough rest and build up progressively.

I DID find that I was stuck around 20 pull ups, and THAT did not change until I started doing weighted pull ups. I would add 5 lbs and do 3 sets of 15 pull ups. Every time I achieved that goal I added 5 more lbs and stayed at that weight until I could do the 3 sets of 15. After 4 months I was doing 3 sets of 15 reps with 45 lbs! That's pretty darn good. I was doing around 30 BW pull ups, one of the top scores in my class. Unsurprisingly, I was easily one of the best big guys on the obstacle course. Pull ups are really important. I was 211 lbs at the end of that 4 month training period. The weight gain was about half muscle and half fat, which was on purpose.

Again, I did that 2-3x per week. 3x one week, 2x the next week, and so on. I just alternated. It worked beautifully. I had many pull up challenges from marines and other BUD/S students and I didn't lose any, despite being the heavier man.

That is not only my experience, but the experience of every single person who has followed that program under my supervision. It does not fail. Your personal gains in numbers are hard to estimate, but they will be quite impressive.

Seems like a solid program to me. PS: 2.5k posts!!!

LOL! I do talk a lot.

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that this is CLEARLY a program that was specifically oriented at building pull up strength and endurance. I would absolutely say that unless for some reason you only have 3-6 months to drastically build your pull up endurance OR ELSE!!!!! you will be better off working the WODs here, and possibly focusing more on higher rep work than the tempo reps when they are present. That's kind of a strange recommendation, because you will still get excellent endurance from the tempo reps. The time under tension is quite a long time with a 313 tempo. That's 7 seconds per rep! 35s for 5 reps! Think about how many pull ups you can do in 35 seconds. If you can do perfect 313 tempo reps for 35 seconds you're going to be able to do some decent numbers. Nothing mindblowing, but pretty darn good. When you can do that with maybe 20 lbs added, your numbers will be far better.

Pull up strength would be, I think, the only thing that I would ever understand someone building up before jumping into the WODs. Even then, I would structure them exactly like I said and still do the WODs, just replacing the pull up work with what I mentioned. I would ONLY do that if pull up endurance is an absolute priority. Otherwise I would just go with the WODs. You will be doing PLENTY of reps in a year, and you will have an incredibly expansive set of well-developed abilities to go along with your pull ups. To abandon the WODs in favor of a pull up focus is just completely backwards. You can work the pull up focus into the WODs if it is that important, though you will be missing out on more well-rounded multiplanar strength by doing so.

I can honestly say, being someone who truly started here at close to zero when it comes to pull ups, that the WODs really are effective.

My numbers are still far from spectacular, but i've seen a marked improvement without doing much pull up specific work. I say this because its surprised me after struggling with pyramids etc. For instance the last wod. A few months back, there would be no way i could do 4 sets of 5 PU's (not trying the clapping yet) After 6 weeks of only for strength WODs for strength its no problem, a fact which really surprised me yesterday as i did the WOD.

Sure its not much, but last Christmas i couldn't get one. I used bands for a month and then tried pyramids etc, yet the WODs seem to have been the thing that really made a difference.

CBB said:

Hmm, are you sure about overtraining? As I said, my volume wasn't particularly high in many months, just 30-40 reps lately (AT MOST! Usually fewer) per evening, with 18-20 hours rest. My impression was that I may not have been training enough.

My next goal is the muscle up. Personally, I'm fine with 10 pullups max, but I have been told that the muscle up requires more reps before you have enough strength and endurance.

At 8-9 reps I feel very clearly that I'm not strong enough for explosive pullups and false grip pullups yet. I hear you should be capable of doing 15-20 pullups before you are strong enough for advanced muscle up progression exercises, so I was thinking it can do no harm if I go up to 15-20 reps, and then maybe more weighted, etc.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?

As I said, I was looking to grease the groove now (unless you'll provide a good reason not to), and I already did 70 reps total in 5 rep sets today and I'm feeling fine.

Thanks!

I wouldn't make any more volume increases until you start seeing reps added to your pullups. Fatigue will build rapidly if you keep upping the volume.

Mr Brady said:

I can honestly say, being someone who truly started here at close to zero when it comes to pull ups, that the WODs really are effective.

My numbers are still far from spectacular, but i've seen a marked improvement without doing much pull up specific work. I say this because its surprised me after struggling with pyramids etc. For instance the last wod. A few months back, there would be no way i could do 4 sets of 5 PU's (not trying the clapping yet) After 6 weeks of only for strength WODs for strength its no problem, a fact which really surprised me yesterday as i did the WOD.

Sure its not much, but last Christmas i couldn't get one. I used bands for a month and then tried pyramids etc, yet the WODs seem to have been the thing that really made a difference.

I am not surprised at all. That's why I said that he should really just be worrying about the WODs. You get a LOT more muscular endurance from the WODs than it looks like on paper.

Thanks again for your help everyone! Food for thought!

If you did 70 in 5 sets that's 12 or 13 reps per set is that your actual max?

Sorry, I meant to say that I did 14 sets of 5 reps. My max is 8-9. It all went well but I feel tired today and am taking a rest day.

So I am not saying not to do lots of volume I'm just saying to also have more rest. I'd be willing to bet you'd have better results with a bit more volume or intensity on fewer days with less chance of injury.

Good point. I thought GTG-like training benefits the most from working out every day, but this seems not to be true.

For the muscle up beyond some basic pullup and dip strength the main thing you need to work on is the transition and elbow joint conditioning. Look up slizzardmans Russian dip thread.

I saw his Russian dip advice before and will definitely check it out, but I've been neglecting even regular dips too much! ALL the way down and ALL the way up, it's a lot harder than I had remembered. Time to work on that.

Its honestly going to take a long time to get 20 non kipping good form pullups, especially without doing weighted versions. Are you a small light Guy? If so it will be easier.

Smallish but around 180lbs. I could perhaps take off 10-15lbs by doing more cardio, and I hope to do so soon (I'm starting slow after injury).

------------

I'm going to share with you the story of how I went from 8 to 17 perfect BW pull ups in 3 months. Now, I was 190 lbs at the time and 6'2" so I wasn't super small. The first step was mastering 5 sets of 5 pull ups with 30-60s of rest. Each set was a different grip. Close, wide, regular pull up,regular chin up, and parallel. After that it was 2 rounds of 7 reps per grip, with 30-60s between grips. It took me about a month to get that down. After THAT it was 2 rounds of 10 reps per grip, and a sixth grip was added: close grip chin ups. That took me about another 2 months. It was VERY tough.

This sounds interesting but I'm not quite getting it. Can you elaborate on the volume please?

First you do ONE workout per day (except rest days), where you attempt 5x5 varied pullups?! Just that and nothing else? What do you mean by 2 rounds of 7 reps? 2 workouts of 5x7 reps per day?! And then 2 workouts of 5x10 reps per day?! Where would you put rest days? Just work out every other day or take blocks of working/resting? Also, how much resting is a rest day, can I still do low volume pushup/dip sets on those days or will it trash my recovery!?

BTW: Has anyone here tried the Armstrong program or GTG? How well did pyramids work for you?

Read it again. First he did 5x5 for a while (probably around a month). AFTER that was mastered he went to do 2x7xeach grip (if I understand properly).

Regardless, I think the underlying message is that the program Slizzardman mentioned as well as GTG as well as other protocols will increase your number pullups. What is also being said is that by doing the WoDs and by not specifying on pullups, you will ALSO increase your pullups. Perhaps, it will not happen as quickly as with GTG, however besides pullups, you will become powerful in many other planes of movements, like doing dips, HeSPU, etc.

In my opinion, and perhaps that of many others on this forums, doing the WoDs will allow you to milk far more than specifying on a particular movement.

I don't know how much longer I'm going to pay attention to this thread, because I honestly can't think of anything that needs to be said but has not already been mentioned.

I have done almost everything you could think of in my quest for physical actuality ( Int he Aristotlean sense), and while the Armstrong program is not one I have tried or heard of, I have just read through it. He has a very, very narrow focus, which is to be expected from a program written specifically to break a pull up world record. This would be one of the absolute worst programs for anyone interested in overall fitness to ever consider because of those facts, but I would like to point out that just like any other effective program it emphasizes the absolute importance of having saturday and sunday off. Two complete rest days. Armstrong also emphasizes the fact that you will see gains in your later sets before you see gains in your earlier sets. Again, that is a phenomenon common to every highly successful fitness program I can think of. Finally, even Armstrong's program emphasizes mixing up the workouts between maximal and submaximal, to failure and not to failure.

The original poster here has followed none of these basic premises, and so has made unsurprisingly poor progress. This shouldn't be food for thought, it should be food for action.

To the original poster: stop trying to figure it all out before you start on something new. Do what works, and let your progress help you understand. Nothing else needs to be said here, honestly. You've been given practically everything that exists on the subject of pull ups, so instead of thinking about it and continuing to not make progress I would prefer to see you start up a training log that shows you getting on track with a program based around solid, well proven principles even if you DON'T understand why they work. Understanding comes later. You can't understand how to ride a bike until you get on it, no matter how much any of us tries to tell you. Fitness is no different. Get on the pull up bar and use it the right way! I want to hear about your success, so I would love to see you get started today!