The late, great, Dr. Mel Siff on gymnastics

Dr. Mel Siff praises gymnastics:

There are few sports which offer as many variations of upper and lower body plyometric action as gymnastics...

Gymnastics involves complex jumps, depth landings from certain apparatus, depth jumps, plyometric rebounds, ballistic actions in three dimensions, training of reaction time, short sprints, explosive trunk activities and numerous other actions that together are unrivalled by entire volumes on ‘plyometric training’. Add to this the eminently demanding motor skills and great accelerations and we can see that gymnastics offers an impressive system of strength training involving maximum power development, high Rates of Force Development, powerful eccentric loading, intensive slow and rapid isometrics, true core stability (in free space, not attached to the floor) and “functional training†of many aspects of human movement.

... there are those who consider weight training to be the only effective form of strength training. Does not gymnastics also qualify as a complex form of highly technical strength training?

Of course, this now leads us towards the inevitable question: :†Is it at all necessary for gymnasts to do any additional weight training?â€

http://www.drmelsiff.com/9325/dr-mel-si ... yometrics/

Dr. Mel Siff explains why you need to do backbending:

It is not only exposure to a stressful action that can cause injury, but also religious avoidance of so-called dangerous actions (which might occur during actual sporting conditions). One cannot expect the body to cope with the immense structural and functional demands placed on the body in sport unless one methodically conditions the body to cope with progressively greater structural and functional stresses.

http://www.drmelsiff.com/9367/dr-mel-si ... -problems/

Is it possible to dispense with weight training?

In fact, even in American football, one could probably dispense entirely with the weights gym, all free weights and machines, and substitute a mixture of track and field and gymnastics activities coupled with a well-chosen mixture

of martial arts forms (karate, wrestling, boxing, ultimate fighting, Taekwondo, judo, aikido, sumo and TaiChi) – and produce equally phenomenal players....

I have little doubt that a Martial arts-Track-Gymnastics (MTG) program would produce NFL players, for example, who just as proficient as their weight-trained counterparts, all other supplements, game practice and rewards being equal – and at much lower cost.

http://www.melsiff.com/1511/mel-siff-on ... am-sports/

This last comment by Siff interests me because I have, pretty much, come to this very conclusion myself (that a combination of martial arts, gymnastics and track create great athletes). I do gymnastics, BJJ, and sprinting/jumping, but also add in a couple weighted exercises such as squats and hip thrusts. I really don't do any weight training other than that anymore. Not that I have anything against weight training in the slightest, or that I am training for American football.

I will give you some reasons why if you are training for american football why you should not give up being under a bar, pushing and pulling it.

You are going to have to move external loads. Training and running plays is gonna hurt. Deadlifting and back squatting do both.

For the ball positions, gymnastics and sprinting may be just fine. But for linemen, linebackers, and safety's and tailbacks don't give up the bar.

Hey, like I said, I still do a couple weighted exercises myself.

I'm not saying that american football players should give up weights, but I don't think Siff was saying barbells are suboptimal, he would probably say that they are optimal, I think he making the point that is not always necessary. What do you think about that point?

trianglechoke7 said:

Dr. Mel Siff praises gymnastics:

There are few sports which offer as many variations of upper and lower body plyometric action as gymnastics...

Gymnastics involves complex jumps, depth landings from certain apparatus, depth jumps, plyometric rebounds, ballistic actions in three dimensions, training of reaction time, short sprints, explosive trunk activities and numerous other actions that together are unrivalled by entire volumes on ‘plyometric training’. Add to this the eminently demanding motor skills and great accelerations and we can see that gymnastics offers an impressive system of strength training involving maximum power development, high Rates of Force Development, powerful eccentric loading, intensive slow and rapid isometrics, true core stability (in free space, not attached to the floor) and “functional training†of many aspects of human movement.

... there are those who consider weight training to be the only effective form of strength training. Does not gymnastics also qualify as a complex form of highly technical strength training?

Of course, this now leads us towards the inevitable question: :†Is it at all necessary for gymnasts to do any additional weight training?â€

http://www.drmelsiff.com/9325/dr-mel-si ... yometrics/

Dr. Mel Siff explains why you need to do backbending:

It is not only exposure to a stressful action that can cause injury, but also religious avoidance of so-called dangerous actions (which might occur during actual sporting conditions). One cannot expect the body to cope with the immense structural and functional demands placed on the body in sport unless one methodically conditions the body to cope with progressively greater structural and functional stresses.

http://www.drmelsiff.com/9367/dr-mel-si ... -problems/

Is it possible to dispense with weight training?

In fact, even in American football, one could probably dispense entirely with the weights gym, all free weights and machines, and substitute a mixture of track and field and gymnastics activities coupled with a well-chosen mixture

of martial arts forms (karate, wrestling, boxing, ultimate fighting, Taekwondo, judo, aikido, sumo and TaiChi) – and produce equally phenomenal players....

I have little doubt that a Martial arts-Track-Gymnastics (MTG) program would produce NFL players, for example, who just as proficient as their weight-trained counterparts, all other supplements, game practice and rewards being equal – and at much lower cost.

http://www.melsiff.com/1511/mel-siff-on ... am-sports/

This last comment by Siff interests me because I have, pretty much, come to this very conclusion myself (that a combination of martial arts, gymnastics and track create great athletes). I do gymnastics, BJJ, and sprinting/jumping, but also add in a couple weighted exercises such as squats and hip thrusts. I really don't do any weight training other than that anymore. Not that I have anything against weight training in the slightest, or that I am training for American football.

********* great post from a man that was exposed to probably the greatest sport system ever(USSR)

trianglechoke7 said:

Hey, like I said, I still do a couple weighted exercises myself.

I'm not saying that american football players should give up weights, but I don't think Siff was saying barbells are suboptimal, he would probably say that they are optimal, I think he making the point that is not always necessary. What do you think about that point?

I think that he is saying that despite the propaganda machines that want us all to believe there is nothing worth doing if it can't load a plate, there are other modalities that can and will create incredibly powerful and capable athletes that can perform at the top of their sports.

One of those sports is football, and one of those modalities is gymnastics.

Some years back, one of my assistant coaches moved to Colorado where he ended up coaching a High School football team. And not just any football team, but a team which had been consistently last for many years. My assistant called me asking permission to implement some of my conditioning with the team; at least the portions of it that he would be able to perform out on the football field. I gave my assent and he implemented it against great resistance from his own assistant coaches who believed only in traditional football conditioning. This was in the late spring.

Each year at the end of summer, all of the Colorado High School football teams get together for a traditional football strength competition. My assistant's team was second. Quite a jump up from their perennial last place.

Interestingly during that season, his team also made the playoffs for the first time.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Some years back, one of my assistant coaches moved to Colorado where he ended up coaching a High School football team. And not just any football team, but a team which had been consistently last for many years. My assistant called me asking permission to implement some of my conditioning with the team; at least the portions of it that he would be able to perform out on the football field. I gave my assent and he implemented it against great resistance from his own assistant coaches who believed only in traditional football conditioning. This was in the late spring.

Each year at the end of summer, all of the Colorado High School football teams get together for a traditional football strength competition. My assistant's team was second. Quite a jump up from their perennial last place.

Interestingly during that season, his team also made the playoffs for the first time.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

That's cool!

It would be interesting to know more about his football program.

The Hansenator said:

That's cool!

It would be interesting to know more about his football program.

+1

It would be interesting to learn exactly what worked for the team.

niftyvt said:

+1

It would be interesting to learn exactly what worked for the team.

If I had to venture a guess without seeing the exact programming, I'd say it entirely had to do with using i) a complete system and ii) progressions. Having spent the past two years training a Division I football team, there is no question in my mind that a MTG program or even just Coach Sommer's gymnastics would be far superior to what the team trains with traditional weights. Just the quality of athletes I received into the team alone shows this. In order from left (most physically capable and quality players on the field) to right (worst):

[---A--------------B-----------------------------------C----]

A) Players with min. 3-4 years of gymnastics when younger. Best lifters, most impressive on the field.

B) Players who went to an elitist, top 25 Sports Illustrated, obsessed with winning high school like mine -or- players who had a quality background in either martial arts or track. Siff is dead-on in choice of sports to what my player profiles show.

C) Everyone else. Out of several hundred players I've seen, I can't come up with a single exception to where A or B got outperformed by someone else.

Now, football always is the head strength coach's baby, so I could only tweak things and had to largely do as told, but if I were to put offseason football on a purely GB WOD in place of the normal 4x week training, I can guarantee the following:

1) Less injuries. NCAA regulates our time very strictly so the first thing a head strength coach tends to throw out are "superfluous" things like joint work, mobility, and structural balance. I wince every time a player is out for a preventable injury.

2) Better core training through the program itself. So much time gets wasted on fad-tastic junk that does nothing for the players other than make them grumpy. The GB WOD is not only time efficient, but does much more for athleticism as a whole than the "core" exercises the team does.

3) Significantly improved technique. Gymnastics has much less fudge room than traditional weight lifting. My football players have mastered the art of butchering technique when they're tired and want to get through it as fast as possible. You should see how skilled some of them are at turning a pull up into a useless exercise. When constantly under the possibility of falling on his face or rear doing a gymnastics progression, I don't doubt football players would be much more concerned with form and technique.

4) Improved mental game. Every head strength coach I've had has wanted to do this, and every one has attempted it with either BS exercises that hurt training just for the sake of "toughening up mentally" or gone to extreme work capacity with the result that they simply pissed off the players and had zero net gains. Gymnastics, martial arts, and track all require much more internal work during training than my players have been getting. RIght now, the mental requirement is so low of the athletes that their priorities look like this:

A) Get through work out as fast as possible B) Worship self in mirror (no joke, our rivals would win games simply if they put reflective mirrors on their helmets) and C) Fight over who stole who's girlfriend

I make fun, but I do care a lot about my athletes.

I could come up with more benefits, but those four things alone would significantly impact the season performance of my team. You can argue whether a perfect weight lifting program or perfect MGT program would have the best performance, but in practical terms to my team and the other division one programs i've visited, there's no question MTG would be better.

Interestingly in view of this discussion, today I received an email from one of the Kansas City Chiefs strength coaches. 8)

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

HAHA. How ironic!

Hmm, to note, I remember Herschel Walker did some gymnastics at a young age.

It's very beneficial to do some gymnastics for every child between 3-5yo as the brain is being wired up and physical movement helps this a lot. I did not do gymnastics but basic rolling and judo exercises were something I was encouraged to do (dad was judoka).

Coach Sommer said:

Interestingly in view of this discussion, today I received an email from one of the Kansas City Chiefs strength coaches. 8)

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Just tell him they need to fly in the entire team for the seminar in September. THAT would be an interesting weekend!

coreathlete said:

Coach Sommer said:

Interestingly in view of this discussion, today I received an email from one of the Kansas City Chiefs strength coaches. 8)

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Just tell him they need to fly in the entire team for the seminar in September. THAT would be an interesting weekend!

Ya, those guys would make everyone else look like smurfs! Except maybe the kicker

HAHAHA!!! THAT would be awesome. People my size are proof that this stuff works incredibly well for football player size and build people!