Ring rows question

Hi,

I’m currently on 5x9 and have had a plateau for many months. 

Doing the rows with the prescribed tempo I can do one set of 12-13 reps with good form (have had multiple form checks), but doing them slowly without the help of momentum, say 2 sec from bottom to top, I can only do 2 or 3. Easily up to a point where the rings are about 10 cm from the chest, but pulling that last part just gets soo much harder! Not good right!?

I understand that in general it gets harder when it’s done slow (more time under tension, less momentum etc) but what is expected here, comparing ring rows in ”standard” motion to slow motion?

I’m guessing that I’m just too weak at the top of the pull and that by adressing that weakness specifically I could break the plateau. What do you think?

Hi Thomas, it is strange because you should have some overlap on endurance from the previous exercise, can you provide execution of the previous element and one execution of the current progression?

@Alessandro Mainente here is videos of 15 reps RC/PE1 and 9 reps RC/PE2 from todays session:

If you are executing all the reps like in the video above, they are fine.

Can you post here the results of PE2 of the last 4 weeks?

Here are the result of PE2 for the last 4 weeks in chronological order:

Week 1 (deload, 2 sessions): 4x5 / 4x6

Week 2 (2 sessions): 9,9,9,9,9 / 9,9,9,9,9

Week 3 (2 sessions): 9,9,9,8,8 / 9,9,9,9,9 (cleaning up the form)

Week 4 (2 sessions): 9,9,9,9,8 / 9,9,9,9,8

The reason for staying at 5x9 is that I wanted the form to be really good before moving on. For me it is hard to sense when the form starts to break so I need to film myself from time to time to realize that, and often then find things to adjust. 

As a side note I increased the volume for a 4-5 weeks in May doing 6x9. It made little or no difference I think.

Doing another set to failure can be an option.

24 minutes ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

Doing another set to failure can be an option.

Ok, would that be 6x9 or 7x9?

What’s your input regarding my theory that I have a potential weakness when it comes to pulling at the top of the movement, when the rings are close to the chest?

On 7/16/2019 at 10:35 AM, Thomas Nordman said:

Doing the rows with the prescribed tempo I can do one set of 12-13 reps with good form (have had multiple form checks), but doing them slowly without the help of momentum, say 2 sec from bottom to top, I can only do 2 or 3. Easily up to a point where the rings are about 10 cm from the chest, but pulling that last part just gets soo much harder!

Cannot say anything specifically, it can be a series of factors:

-weak biceps;

-weak lats;

-weak triceps;

-bad shoulder extensions that create more passive against the last part of the range of motion.

Ok, understood. I will probably gain a lot from improving my poor shoulder extension so I will definitely work on that.

I certainly have some weak muscles too. Which one of the mentioned muscles are the primary mover at the top?

And I had no idea that triceps was involved during ring rows!? What does it do specifically?

A lot of questions. Thanks for helping out @Alessandro Mainente 

13 minutes ago, Thomas Nordman said:

Ok, understood. I will probably gain a lot from improving my poor shoulder extension so I will definitely work on that.

I certainly have some weak muscles too. Which one of the mentioned muscles are the primary mover at the top?

And I had no idea that triceps was involved during ring rows!? What does it do specifically?

A lot of questions. Thanks for helping out @Alessandro Mainente 

 

Hey Thomas! I’ve spent almost a year on Ground Rows! Most of that time I was on the same step as you. Seemed impossible to progress further. What I did though to break that was adding 10 sets of 4 reps after the main sets. When that became easy I added 1 rep to the sets so 10x5r. When that became easy I added 1 rep so 10x6r up until I noticed that the main sets became significantly easier. So I jumped up one step in the programming but kept the 10 sets after. This time I started at 10x5r and adding 1 rep over time. 

I don’t know if that will work for you or if it’s even necessary to go that overkill to break the plateau lol, but it worked like a charm for me. When I started adding the extra sets I mastered Ground Rows after about two months. 

Important note: I did all the extra sets with the mobility exercise in between the sets. I think that’s really important! And I continued doing the extra sets all the way up to mastery. 

Cheers man!

Another very interesting concept I’ve been working on lately is trying to go into the sets thinking and feeling that it’s easy and not hard. Sounds strange maybe but if you think about it it makes sense. If a person think something is impossible (hard) it probably will be. What comes to mind is the “4 minute mile”. Up until 1954 it was thought humanly impossible to run a mile under 4 minutes until Roger Bannister broke that barrier and the year after many more people broke the 4 minute barrier and since then countless others. So that became the new normal in a way. 

Before I started doing GB I tried this out on handstand push-ups against the wall. I did one set first and I could only 2. Then I sat down and tried to visualize how easy it was doing handstand push-ups and how I was light as a feather and how strong I was. When I felt it deep I tried another set of handstand push-ups against the wall and managed to do 8! And that’s only from switching from a perception of something being “super hard” to to “super easy”. So I really think that the psychology behind it is so important to and an aspect worth exploring.

Hey Nils, thanks for sharing! Your suggested programming with some extra quality sets looks really interesting. And impressive progression you had from using it! I will definitely try that out. But it’s alot of extra volume, almost twice. How many session/week? Two? 

The mental part is really fascinating. I certainly believe in the power of the mind when it comes to accomplishing things that are on your limit, be it your physical or technical limit. Your sub-4 minute mile example is a good one and spending half a lifetime myself rock climbing I have seen and experienced the same thing on rock when someone led the way and climbed something that was considered ”impossible”. It starts with believing that you can do it.

Great anectdote with your handstand push-ups. I’ll use that as inspiration. 

Hey! Yeah it’s a lot of extra volume but it worked pretty good for me. I did that twice a week, Tuesday’s and fridays. So a little rest in between at least  I don’t know how your own recovery is, if you need more time or not, but I quickly adapted to the added volume with no problems at all. 

On 7/20/2019 at 12:43 PM, Thomas Nordman said:

Ok, understood. I will probably gain a lot from improving my poor shoulder extension so I will definitely work on that.

I certainly have some weak muscles too. Which one of the mentioned muscles are the primary mover at the top?

And I had no idea that triceps was involved during ring rows!? What does it do specifically?

A lot of questions. Thanks for helping out @Alessandro Mainente 

 

The long head tricep is a small synergistic muscle of the lats that promotes a little bit of adduction. usually when front lever exercises are executed to failure usually you can refer cramps to long head tricep.

On the pulling work, i have seen that on the 99% of the people the weak point is the biceps. thinking about minimal muscles conditioning with dumbell it is a solution that i have implemented in the last couple of years on those who are weak in the elbow flexor.

I've been on ground rows since October 2018. I feel you, it's a very hard progression to master. For me, it's mainly a bicep endurance exercise. My arms are dead at the end. What I'm doing right now is 3-5 sets of weighted elevated row in the same session (I do upper body twice a week). I keep the rings at the same height as for the PE2, I put my feet on a box, not as high as the rings, maybe half as high. I put a plate on my stomach and vary the weight of the plate session to session. Between 10kg and 20kg. It's more strength work than endurance so for example I do 4x6 @ 15kg with 3min of rest between sets. Typical strength training. I feel it's helping me a lot to progress. I don't feel that 4-5 sets of ground rows twice a week is enough for me to progress. For ground rows I'm now at 4x13. 

There are many different ways to add volume to break a plateau. @Nils Westfelt method is a good one, I didn't try it but I'll try if I can't progress that way anymore.

You could try Greasing the Groove if you're training at home and can do multiple sets everyday.

Keep working, it's gonna come

Thanks for the input @Tom Bussien! Yes, adding a block with more focus on strength, i.e higher intensity and longer rests,  is a good alternative. I've considered that too and will probably try that if progress stalls again. The last couple of weeks I've been doing extra sets they way @Nils Westfelt suggested (but being a bit moderate I added 7 sets and not 10 to start with, making a total of 12 sets). I did not know if I would be able to handle all that extra volume 2 times a week. Well I gave it a try and now a few weeks in there is no question that there is progress again and that extra volume was what I needed. Next session I will probably start on step 7 (4x12).

Here are the set/reps from the last 3 weeks (all sets with 1-2 reps in reserve):

w1

9,9,9,8,8,5,5,5,5,5,5,5

9,9,9,9,8,5,5,5,5,5,5,5

w2

9,9,9,8,7,5,5,5,5,5,5,5

9,9,9,9,9,5,5,5,5,5,5,5

w3

9,9,9,9,9,6,6,6,6,6,5,5

9,9,9,9,9,6,6,6,6,6,6,6

As a side note, I've been working on my shoulder extension, both stretching and massage. I found some serious trigger points in my pec majors that definitely limited range of motion and caused some pain in the front of my shoulders/biceps at the very top of the row. Releasing these trigger points with massage has made all the difference!

@Thomas Nordman

One other thing that may help is making sure the rings are the correct width apart. I had mine too narrow. They should be at 50cm. How has your progress been the last month?

On 7/21/2019 at 2:26 PM, Alessandro Mainente said:

.

On the pulling work, i have seen that on the 99% of the people the weak point is the biceps. thinking about minimal muscles conditioning with dumbell it is a solution that i have implemented in the last couple of years on those who are weak in the elbow flexor.

Do you suggest to include some bicep conditioning with a dumbbell if you have reached a plateau?

Any tips for sets and weight to start with?

thanks,

nick

Adding specific muscles conditioning can be done in the 8-12 reps range and 4-5 sets.

17 hours ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

Adding specific muscles conditioning can be done in the 8-12 reps range and 4-5 sets.

Just curls? Or any other lifts?

Only Curls.

On 9/23/2019 at 4:34 AM, Sam Petulla said:

@Thomas Nordman

One other thing that may help is making sure the rings are the correct width apart. I had mine too narrow. They should be at 50cm. How has your progress been the last month?

Yes, it is important to pay attention to the details. I have my rings 50-51 cm apart. And to mention another important detail - the grip! Make sure you have a really good hold of the rings. It makes a big difference, especially near the top of the pull. So, clean the rings from grease once in a while, use chalk on your hands and place your hands with great care every set.

Regarding progress the last month, the focus in my training plan the last month have been cardio with some races as well (running and XC-skiing), so the goal has mainly been to maintain the strength during this period. Still some progress since last update. From the session the other day:

10,10,10,9,9,6,6,6,6,6,6,6

At this point the added volume is no problem and I believe could probably benefit from adding more sets to keep progressing (remember Nils added 10 extra sets, I've settled on 7 so far).

How are you doing @Sam Petulla?

19 hours ago, Thomas Nordman said:

Yes, it is important to pay attention to the details. I have my rings 50-51 cm apart. And to mention another important detail - the grip! Make sure you have a really good hold of the rings. It makes a big difference, especially near the top of the pull. So, clean the rings from grease once in a while, use chalk on your hands and place your hands with great care every set.

Regarding progress the last month, the focus in my training plan the last month have been cardio with some races as well (running and XC-skiing), so the goal has mainly been to maintain the strength during this period. Still some progress since last update. From the session the other day:

10,10,10,9,9,6,6,6,6,6,6,6

At this point the added volume is no problem and I believe could probably benefit from adding more sets to keep progressing (remember Nils added 10 extra sets, I've settled on 7 so far).

How are you doing @Sam Petulla?

The big thing I've done is to add two bicep exercises every week, both 4x10. I just haven't seen much in the way of gains (my rep range is behind yours) from doing rows every week. I'm hoping targeting the weakest link directly will help.