unimpressed by strength

Crimsoncross said:

PMac said:

Typical weight training gyms offer no transferable skills from the gym to real life situations. A movement is performed with a certain amount of weight for a specific amount of reps and then repeat.

As a previous poster said, how come all sportsmen do anything but gymnastic-specific training, they all lift weights. NFL, MLB, NBA, Tennis, etc. I'd bet my life there's not a single athlete in any of these sports who can do a FL, or a PL, or hold a free HS for more than 1 minute.

Because they have been proven to work. Gasoline has been proven to burn well in car engines. That doesn't mean there isn't a way to improve it, like with hydrogen injection and/or using a water mister once every 6 cycles instead of gasoline, but it isn't done. Why? The public at large doesn't demand it. In sports, the "public" is the athletes. They have not been exposed to the possibilities. Having said that, MANY athletes do use gymnastic work as one of the tools in their toolbox, and it shows. Track and field especially shows this to be true and useful. Coach has also mentioned a high school football team that used a lot of GB work and achieved great success as a result. I do not know what "great success" entails.

Part of the reason that all of these sports rely heavily on weight training is that these athletes almost exclusively use bent arm strength in their sport and weight training is a proven way to develop high degrees of bent arm strength. Having said that, there is a lot of bodyweight conditioning that many of these athletes do as well. The rest of the reason they don't use GB-style work is that they are unfamiliar with it and the results it can bring. They should not abandon weight training, because many of these athletes NEED to maintain their mass, and weight training does that more readily than gymnastic training. What they SHOULD do is incorporate useful elements, which would be all of the core training, dedicating some leg time to SLS/NLC, slowly learning planche, doing HSPU progressions, FL. The rest of we do is less directly applicable, and may require too many recovery resources to justify vs other training methods for a particular sport and position within the sport, but these at the very least would make a massive difference. I've worked with a few athletes recently, some football players and a boxer, and they all immediately recognized how useful our training is.

Don't forget the practicalities of teaching complex conditioning skills to a room full of athletes. Strength training is only supplemental for many athletes and sometimes certain exercises are avoided simply because it's too hard to teach and enforce proper technique to a room full of football players.

slizzardman said:

Crimsoncross said:

PMac said:

Typical weight training gyms offer no transferable skills from the gym to real life situations. A movement is performed with a certain amount of weight for a specific amount of reps and then repeat.

As a previous poster said, how come all sportsmen do anything but gymnastic-specific training, they all lift weights. NFL, MLB, NBA, Tennis, etc. I'd bet my life there's not a single athlete in any of these sports who can do a FL, or a PL, or hold a free HS for more than 1 minute.

Because they have been proven to work. Gasoline has been proven to burn well in car engines. That doesn't mean there isn't a way to improve it, like with hydrogen injection and/or using a water mister once every 6 cycles instead of gasoline, but it isn't done. Why? The public at large doesn't demand it. In sports, the "public" is the athletes. They have not been exposed to the possibilities. Having said that, MANY athletes do use gymnastic work as one of the tools in their toolbox, and it shows. Track and field especially shows this to be true and useful. Coach has also mentioned a high school football team that used a lot of GB work and achieved great success as a result. I do not know what "great success" entails.

Part of the reason that all of these sports rely heavily on weight training is that these athletes almost exclusively use bent arm strength in their sport and weight training is a proven way to develop high degrees of bent arm strength. Having said that, there is a lot of bodyweight conditioning that many of these athletes do as well. The rest of the reason they don't use GB-style work is that they are unfamiliar with it and the results it can bring. They should not abandon weight training, because many of these athletes NEED to maintain their mass, and weight training does that more readily than gymnastic training. What they SHOULD do is incorporate useful elements, which would be all of the core training, dedicating some leg time to SLS/NLC, slowly learning planche, doing HSPU progressions, FL. The rest of we do is less directly applicable, and may require too many recovery resources to justify vs other training methods for a particular sport and position within the sport, but these at the very least would make a massive difference. I've worked with a few athletes recently, some football players and a boxer, and they all immediately recognized how useful our training is.

Totally agree with u here slizz,

At my gym we have a lot of polevaulters train and they are great to watch. Thay don't alway s do things with as strict form as the gymnasts but they train and are impressive athletes. A lot are tall guys and they can alll standing back, rope climbs, heaps of gymnastic style core conditioning. It was actually a pole vaulter who first got me interested in gymnastics. I agree that other sports will use gymnastic conditioning more and more as it gets out there and the value is recognized, I even saw some professional aussie rules football guys doing rings pushups, basic stuff but right idea, so i feel it will catch on.

Crimsoncross said:

I'd bet my life there's not a single athlete in any of these sports who can do a FL, or a PL, or hold a free HS for more than 1 minute.

Well you might lose your life so, there is a video of a bodybuilder doing a planche in another thread so I think it is highly likely others could. I do think you are just trolling at this stage though.

More on Konstantinovs from those videos, he started off doing gymnastics and interestingly he only trains olympic squatting though he is a powerlifter.

Here's KK on his training:

Train 4 days in a 8-10 day period

Squat every time: light, medium, heavy, ME. He squats OLY-style, because it help deadlift more, than regular squats.

Bench and Deadlift twice.

Accessory work for deadlift - deficit pulls, hypers, reverse hypers, leg kurls.

Abs is very important for big pull. 6-8 heavy sets with bands (2 green or 1 blue).

Pull-ups. He can do 15 reps with 30kg, or 50 with his BW. Lats is also important

He doesn't use straps and wear belt only on max weights.

On every deadlift day he change main exercise (deadlift from blocks, deadlift from hang, deficit deadlift, deadlift from the floor for reps)

Here's a rough translation of an interview I found in Russian with Konstantinovs. There's some great information in it and his training is very specific. (Credit: Jurijs Gucans)

Background

He was born in 1978 in the small town of Liepaya in Latvia. Parents were normal people with no background in sports.

Started in sports at the age of six with gymnastics, and later spent a few years doing wrestling and judo. By 11 he was already quite strong and could do 42 chin-ups.

At 15 he began lifting weights at the gym, initially doing bodybuilding training, but always lifted with the intention of getting stronger. Was already 6ft tall, 160lbs, and deadlifting 475.

At 17 he started training as a powerlifter, getting most of his training and nutrition information from magazines.

Started competing in 1997 and went on to set over 100 Latvian records. He is the national champion in all 3 power lifts and has the biggest total.

In 2002 as a junior he lifted a total of 2210lbs, a world and European record at the time, and he also set a junior WR with a 860lb (360kg) deadlift.

Later that year he recorded 2295lb total in Helsinki (WPC) setting a world and European record in the bench press with 596lbs.

In 2003 in the world championships (GPC) in Austria he was the overall champion setting two world records in the deadlift: 884 followed by 897lbs.

In 2004 won the GPC "World cup" in Slovakia in the 275 class.

In 2005 he totaled 2317 in the IPF and went on to set a WR deadlifting 906 (411kg, no suit) in the 275 class, beating a record held since 1982 by 1kg.

In 2006 he focused exclusively on the deadlift and at the Latvian nationals (WPC-IPF) pulled 948 @ 275 to break his 2005 WR by 19kg (this time in a ****l DL suit) after tokens in the squat and bench press.

His main goal is to beat Andy Bolton's world record (which at the time of the interview was 971).

Training

He has recently given a lot more attention to rest and recovery which he believes is extremely important at his level so he trains more intuitively. He trains the deadlift 2x every 9-12 days, but it all depends on how he's feeling, so if he's feeling slightly fatigued he prefers to rest another day or two before deadlifting again.

His main assistance exercise is pulling off 3-4" blocks (8-10cm).

The overall volume of his deadlift training is very high, going up to 20 sets.

He splits his deadlift workouts in half with 20-30 minutes rest between them. Rest times on work sets are typically 3-5 minutes.

He trains without straps or a belt.

From a recent training session:

Deadlifts from the floor

260 x 5

350 x 5

440 x 3

530 x 1

620 x 1

705 x 1

795 x 1

860 x 4

Rest 30 minutes

Pulling off blocks

375 x 5

485 x 5

660 x 1

750 x 5

815 x 5

Hyperextensions on a 45° bench with 60kg (132lbs) for 2 sets of 20 reps

Reverse hyperextensions with 50-70kg (110-155lbs) for 2 sets of 15-20 reps

Biceps: 2 x 20

Presses: 6 x 15-25

Speed work:

5 x 5 Oly squats with knee wraps

8-10 single speed pulls from the floor with bands that add 130kg of tension to the lockout. He increments his speed work by 5kg (11lbs) each workout. His last speed pull session involved 240kg for 10 singles with 130kg of band tension.

Technique

He explains that while he pulls with a rounded back, it is only his upper back (from the chest up) that is rounded and it stays this way throughout the entire lift. It allows him to lift the maximum amount of weight for his proportions. He said he deadlifted with a straight back and more leg drive years ago but it would not allow him to lift more than 340kg (750).

The biggest influence on his deadlift training has been Ano Turtiainen of Finland, who has given him a lot of advice on his form.

Early on he took his deadlift from 340kg (750) to 390kg (860) in 7 months without increasing his body weight with his technique and training based on US methods, and reached 407kg (895) at a body weight of 118kg. This is where progress stalled and he had to look at other methods.

He now uses a combination of speed work and higher volume training with 75-90% of his max, assistance exercises, and "Westside" training methods. His current training methods have allowed him to take his deadlift to 430kg (948).

At his last competition he did not know how much he could lift but having since analyzed his performance he believes it is not his limit. He wants to go to the United States in 2007 to break the world record.

Training secrets

He explains that intra-abdominal pressure is very important and a belt should be used sparingly. He only uses it lifting maximum weights. He doesn't feel a belt adds anything to his deadlift. He feels sumo lifters benefit more from a belt and that for conventional deadlifters it's only necessary for stability and a little assistance at the start of the lift.

He doesn't use straps in training and doesn't have any problems pulling weight off the floor. In the rack he's pulled 500kg (1100lbs) and held onto it for 8 seconds.

The psychological side of lifting is of great importance to him. Before record attempts, he gets into a state of extreme mental excitation. To lift maximal weights he lifts quickly and aggressively. He puts fear out of his mind. There is no thinking of limits or barriers.

Recently he has excluded powerlifting squats from his training and only squats Olympic style which he feels is better for developing the legs and hip muscles. He also trains the posterior chain with other exercises.

Plans for the future

To break the world record in the deadlift he knows he must specialize in it but he would like to eventually return to being competitive in all three lifts and put up a big total.

He loves the sport of powerlifting and is not in it for money or glory. It is a "way of life." It gives him strength, confidence, develops character, willpower, all qualities that are necessary in everyday life.

Wow. That guy is awesome. Again, like I said, for the most part he uses low volume sets. High total volume, but low reps for the most part. That's the big difference between a strength athlete and a bodybuilder.

rubadub said:

Well you might lose your life so, there is a video of a bodybuilder doing a planche in another thread so I think it is highly likely others could. I do think you are just trolling at this stage though.

I said any athlete in NFL, MLB, NBA or Tennis, which are the "major" sports. I didn't say in every sport. A bodybuilder isn't any of those.

Crimsoncross said:

PMac said:

Typical weight training gyms offer no transferable skills from the gym to real life situations. A movement is performed with a certain amount of weight for a specific amount of reps and then repeat.

As a previous poster said, how come all sportsmen do anything but gymnastic-specific training, they all lift weights. NFL, MLB, NBA, Tennis, etc. I'd bet my life there's not a single athlete in any of these sports who can do a FL, or a PL, or hold a free HS for more than 1 minute.

My comments were not geared towards "sports-specific" training. I was discussing primarily the bodybuilder-type population.

However, since you commented....when it comes to those sports there must be an inherent skill or development of specific skill before a any type of weight training regime will make a significant impact. Weight training won't build sport-specific skill. However, I feel gymnastics has a higher degree of skill transference due to the demands of joint mobility/stability, explosiveness, nervous system optimization, and proprioceptive awareness.

Cutting to the chase....it is widely agreed upon that power movements or olympic lifts have the highest degree of transference from the gym to the field/track/court/etc. I agree with this and support it. In fact, as long as one has proper instruction of the movement, I would say performance on the power snatch can act as a pretty good indicator of one's potential speed and explosiveness.

The funny thing is...that most difficult gymnastic patterns are explosive in nature. A power snatch requires a large degree of neuromuscular recruitment and pattern synergy to be successful. This statement pretty much mirrors what is required to execute many of the more difficult (even basic) gymnastic skills.

Don't get me wrong....there are a few strength coaching pioneers that have been successful at incorporating gymnastic movements into professional programs. I believe we will see more of this in the future, but I think the limiting factor is the one-on-one attention required to teach the skill accordingly and safely. Most coaches simply aren't educated in this area. besides, it's much easier to teach a group of 50 guys a deadlift, bench press and squat. That's just an example of being efficient with one's resources....I get that. However, I don't agree with it.

I only read the first and parts of the last page, so if you guys haven't figured it out, Terrell Owens is a football player.

This thread borders on ridiculous. Some posters, like slizzardman, braindx, and a couple others have given informative and thought-provoking responses, but the vast majority of posters(especially the OP) haven't really said anything of value.

I believe LittleBeastM to be a "fibber" to the fullest extent, though he does have some skills(and a mean bar muscle-up). It was good to finally see that someone agrees with me on this point. It seems the Bar-Barians are unwilling to give up any training info that would truly help those interested in that kind of thing. I have messaged Beast on youtube and he told me to get his one arm chin he simply jumped into it and lowered down or pulled up with two, let go, and lowered down. Most of these guys don't know what any of the gymnastics moves they are doing are called, nor have they used any sort of well-thought out progression to get there. I don't know how or why they are so big, but they don't want to tell anyone it seems. I messaged Hitman on youtube once as well with a question about his diet, and he asked me if I was an idiot. "What kind of a stupid question is that? You want to know what I eat?" was his response. So, I have little respect for him and a couple of the other guys in the "Bar Scene".

Anyway, trolls should not be fed, as one poster mentioned early on in the thread. There is a reason Coach Sommer has not added anything to this eyesore of a thread. He has too much dignity and respect for himself and the sport of gymnastics to do that.

Gentlemen,

Please accept my apologies. I have been traveling for competitions recently and missed reviewing this thread.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer