Posterior pelvic tilt vs braced neutral spine

So what exactly are achived by doing PPT (or even strong PPT) as opposed to setting the spine in a braced neutral position? Or is it actually just a measure to get the spine closer to neutral? (I guess that that is the case for a lot of people, me included, with excessive lumbar lordosis from too much desk time.)

Most of you are propably familiar with the teachings of Kelly Starrett and he pushes for the "braced neutral spine" and does not talk much about PPT (or APT for that matter) in situations where GST does (push-ups etc).

Hi Thomas, what I've enjoyed from Kelly is lifting and general posture/recovery stuff, so I haven't seen him mentioned neutral spine in relation to the gymnastic movements. However, here's my guess based on some good chats with a physical therapist that doubles as a coach over the years. PPT can activate the transverse abdominis (the internal ab layer), instead of relying on just the rectus abdominus (the six pack of the abs). So by going PPT, you're more likely to use more of your abs and create a more stable core for the movements.

I've also been told that breathing is very different between the two. Braced tends to involve holding the breath so that the air in your diaphragm is helping with the stability, while PPT, once mastered, should be a breathable act (so we don't pass out during those long hollow rock sets).

That's my guess. I'd love to see what the coaches say.

That is good points @Jennifer Marie. Just to clarify what Kelly means with braced neutral spine. It involves tilting the pelvis to get into neutral and using the abdominal pressure to "brace" it. And since this is something you should aim for in all situations, sitting, standing, walking, doing push-ups, you need to breath in this position as well.

There are a few theory's I have found regarding breathing recently that might be interesting.

One is that intra abdominal pressure should be sustained in all situations, and breathing into your chest is therefore required. The reason lots of people find that difficult is because we have tight restricted rib cages due to our modern way of breathing and posturing. Slouched and breathing throughout our necks. Stretching and myofacial release to open the ribs up is the supposed fix.

The second was a video is saw that Wesley Tan posted. I will see if I can find it again and post it up here. It basically showed how to brace your abs whilst allowing expansion for breath through the obliques. This is probably more relevant to GST.

Hope this helps!

@Christopher Hancox

Here's the video :

In everyday life posture, breathing should go through abdominal and thoracic breathing like Christopher said.

While making abdominal pressure, there's little thoracic breathing.  This way, it's easier to keep the pressure on and keep breathing in a hold position. 

Breathing technique is interesting and important. Though the original question was rather about the spinal position. So again, why PPT and not neutral?  

It did go a bit off track there.  So my attempt at answering the original question would be as follows.

I would say that PPT is pretty much neutral spine at the lumbar/pelvis junction. KS's neutral spine probably applies to the entire spine (thoracic included).

@Thomas Nordman,

PPT has more to do with gymnastics techniques.  Just look to how many exercises we need to be in hollow position (protracted + PPT). This is no neutral spine at all, but it's for the purpose of it.  You can't be protracted and keep neutral lumbar spine and call it hollow body. 

In the same time, always getting in position makes you used to it - so much that when my physical therapist asked me to put myself in a neutral spine plank, I was still protracting in PPT.

Keeping neutral spine is a more ''functional'' way to train the core.  Because, in everyday life, or even in weight lifting, we don't keep PPT (try to visualize a PPT life ).

So yeah, it's more for gymnastics purposes!

2 hours ago, Christopher Hancox said:

I would say that PPT is pretty much neutral spine at the lumbar/pelvis junction. KS's neutral spine probably applies to the entire spine (thoracic included).

 

@Christopher Hancox You're right about KS's neutral spine however if you are flexible enough and have strong abs PPT must surely mean a flexed lumbar spine. As for myself though it is still propably closer to neutral (work in progress..). 

@Étienne Lajeunesse Good points. It is easy to understand the requirement of PPT in some positions and exercises. The HS I would say is the perfect example. For other exercises such as push-ups it is not so easy. Here I guess gymnastics esthetics and gymnastics purposes as you say could be the explanation.

1 hour ago, Thomas Nordman said:

@Étienne Lajeunesse Good points. It is easy to understand the requirement of PPT in some positions and exercises. The HS I would say is the perfect example. For other exercises such as push-ups it is not so easy. Here I guess gymnastics esthetics and gymnastics purposes as you say could be the explanation.

Don't forget that everything's related one way or another.  For example, practicing protraction/PPT in push-ups will help for the straddle planche since you need the same spine position.  Even if it's specific to gymnastic, everything has a good purpose.  

At the end, either it's hollow or neutral, it will help you in your overall life, no matter what you do

Hey @Alessandro Mainente, you always have great explanations of why we move the way we do. Can you weigh in on the PPT, especially in such movements like push ups where the non-gymnastic athlete does okay without it?

I suspect Etienne hit on it... in the pushup it helps learn the progression to planche... each level of "other" movement that we're practicing PPT is strengthening and bettering PPT. I am, like I saw elsewhere on this thread, probably more flat back than rounded now, but it has gotten better by focusing on PPT in so much of what we do. My hollow rocks... I never could keep my back flat to the floor, and now I can for about 30 reps. I tried to force myself to learn that for two years in CrossFit, but it was all the PPT focus here that really built up the muscle memory and strength.

My two cents…  I think when we PPT we engage the TVA. I think it is one the best things to have a strong and engaged TVA (I don't, but I am working on it)… The TVA stabilizes the body, when standing/moving and if it doesn't work, then the hip-flexors that should be focusing on flexing the hip are helping to stabilize and get overused and tight, causing a bunch of other problems.… (I just posted in the other thread about the hip tightness and hip-flexors). So I think that for the overall health of the hips (aka strength and mobility in harmony), a strong TVA is necessary and PPT position will teach it to engage. 

I have a senior lady tennis player with constantly aching back. Her core was weak, but she couldn't engage it in the plank for example, and thus the pain. No matter of different cues helped… one day I shoved a yoga block between her legs, and by squeezing it in the plank, she immediately engaged her TVA (it was the reflex) and hit an amazing PPT. One minute plank, no back issue. So, I am a fan of PPT for many other reasons, but for this particular connection with the TVA, even more so..