The Importance of Supplementation for Athletes

Well, you happen to be a member of a fairly small minority who feel the way you do. There's nothing wrong with that!

As you say, people who take your approach can not achieve the level of performance that the top international competitors do. That's just the way things are.

As for the ethics of supplementation, at what point does it become wrong? Is it wrong to boil tea leaves just to extract the caffeine, catechins, and other chemicals we want out of them and make tea? That could be considered a supplement. Is it wrong to eat extra fruit after a work out? That might be a supplement. Is it wrong to drink lots of milk after a work out? If it's not, then there's nothing wrong with whey or casein protein supplements, since they are expensively dried milk. Is there something wrong with eating oranges because they have lots of Vitamin c? If you noticed that you performed better when you ate an orange a day, even though you didn't need it and oranges didn't grow in your area, are you doing something wrong?

In the end, most of the supplements that elite athletes use are just natural products; either proteins, carbohydrates, vitamins, or minerals. If there's nothing wrong with eating a whole food that contains them then there should be nothing wrong with consuming a dried and concentrated version. How do you feel about these issues?

As you say, people who take your approach can not achieve the level of performance that the top international competitors do. That's just the way things are.

slizzardman, most people here aren't after the performance of the top international competitors (actually I only know of Gregor being a top international competitor). Many people here have started late and know that it isn't really possible for them to do the victorian or like any exercise after C level. Most people don't compete in international competitions.

Therefore why get in all of that trouble (healthwise, costwise, timewise)?

After all it is possible for someone to do iron cross, planche, somersaults etc. when relying on yourself (I know some people do and they don't even have a good diet).

I would understand some people taking specific substances for specific reasons like fish oil for shoulder recovery (read it somewhere on the forum).

I was wondering if Coach Sommer's athletes take supplements. He has stated that he has no control over their diets and that he instructs only what is bad for them in general lines (like pepsi and chocolate muffins for breakfast ). I would think not because some of them are so young. If they can accomplish those extraordinary feats without the help of supplements and without a diet, then I believe that anyone can be competent with just hard work, consistency, determination, passion for what they're doing and relying on themselves.

To answer your question, (in my personal opinion) it becomes wrong when it's not a natural product (I mean fruit, regular milk etc.). If you want vitamin C then eat more oranges. If you want protein, eat eggs. If you want to eat 20 eggs in a day to get the amount of protein you want, then there's obviously something wrong because you'll get sick. Your body tells you that. Just like your elbows scream warning you when you're trying to do something that is way ahead of what you should be doing.

When I see a bottle of "100% natural orange juice, no added chemicals" at the supermarket and I taste it, it surely doesn't taste as if I was going to make the orange juice out of real oranges that moment (I mean extract the juice from them with a juicer).

This is the same way I feel about "dried and concentrated" versions of proteins, carbohydrates, vitamins etc.

And..pills?? Come on!

I know that I won't do it (at least this is my current philosophy). Perhaps I won't be able to do an azarian pull to inverted cross on rings but that's ok with me. Supplementation scares me like hell. Maybe I'm just ignorant.

I just can't stand those BB meatheads coming out from the gym and consuming their 1lt protein shake.

braindx: I generally hold your opinion very highly so I guess that you know what you're doing.

All fair opinions to have. I don't agree with your opinion regarding the dried and powdered foods, largely because people all over the world throughout history have dried and powdered items in nature. The major difference between now and pre-industry is scale.

You're right, you can get basic high level strength without supplements. To be sure, you can be incredibly strong with just regular foods. Just look at the old time strongmen! The main value in supplements lies in being able to accomplish an athletic goal faster without compromising safety. There are some chemical supplements like steroids and whatnot that can certainly be dangerous, but when we're talking about proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, there is no safety issue that applies to supplements that does not apply to whole food as well. Even with specialized protein fractions like creatine and individual amino acids, there is no danger of hurting yourself unless you are really overdoing it, and to keep things in perspective there are quite a number of people who have died directly from drinking too much water, while there are no deaths that have been directly caused by taking too much creatine or amino acids. It's theoretically possible, but one look at the statistics will show you that fears in that regard are unfounded.

Yes, I'm well aware of a few isolated incidents where it is thought that creatine may have had a role in a death, but when you look at these cases closer they ALL had pre-existing medical issues that were directly linked to the death. Given that there has not been even a minor wave of creatine deaths or amino acid deaths(there were issues with a chinese Tryptophan(i think this is the amino acid) product during the '90s as a result of inferior quality control in manufacturing, but that's because they used a toxic, manmade version) it is reasonable for me to say that fears of protein-based supplements are literally unfounded paranoia.

largely because people all over the world throughout history have dried and powdered items in nature. The major difference between now and pre-industry is scale.

"Processed" is the keyword here. If I powder/dry my food ok, but can you trust a company that does that? I don't. Like we all don't trust preprocessed food.

I know several people taking creatine and they're just not my cup of tea. They're all bulky and inflexible as hell. Yeah ok they train with weights, I don't know how it would be if they were doing gymnastics.

But my athletic performance and if you want muscle growth also is developing fine with regular food (I'm not even on a diet, I eat anything I want but it's healthy food almost all of the times).

Of course to each his own, we're just expressing different opinions here.

Creatine is the most scientifically supported supplement there is. It will increase your absolute strength, but may put on some water weight which won't help with bodyweight skills.

LOL! See, that's why I like Kre-Alkalyn. No water weight, no creatinine(to speak of), no sugar necessary. And, technically, creatine supplements will increase your anaerobic-alactic threshold, not your strength per se. Of course this quickly leads to more hard work and better recovery, which leads to much faster strength gains, but to my knowledge the only "supplement" that causes strength gains on its own, as a direct effect of taking it and not just an effect of more productive training and recovery, are steroids.

Actually, because of working with one coach at a gym I was at a few years ago, I try to get my athletes on a healthy bandwagon. There is the conundrum of what is healthy and I try to stay away from certain health arguments. He stated that if he could not get his gymnasts to eat right, they could not think right in training besides maintain optimal bodyfat levels. As he wanted to train elites, you can see where he is coming from.

We can pretty much all agree that we need optimal levels of minerals (calcium, magnesium, zinc, and potassium and other trace minerals) besides some antioxidants in our diets. Omega 3 fats are incredible. VitaminD levels are necessary and some kids just don't play outside or get to anymore (and bare in mind if they are in a gym 2-5 hours a day, how can they?)

That means they need to eat veggies and fruit and hydrate. It's a good idea to have a snack before workout and during workout. I monitor what the kids can snack on and do not allow them to drink soda or sugary stuffs. Mainly because they are also boys and I don't want to deal with sugar-laced hyper boys who crash and burn. They need to consume protein whether it's red or white meat or seafood or vegetarian proteins (not soy unless it's fermented soy stuffs). As well, I try to notice if the vegetarian kids or girls are iron deficient (I've had a handful of gymnasts/tumblers that are or sometimes just not eating enough by choice or habit).

I generally like my previous mentor point out when gymnasts make good healthy choices and have good snacks. Oh, look; apples, bananas, oranges, etc. I am kind of in mixed opinion about nuts due to phytic acid. I haven't banned fruit juice but... If they have crackers or chips, I might allow that but no cookies (some of my boys seem to love pretzels). Obviously, real food is always better than a processed powerbar. Heck, I try to keep various snacks onhand so I have something to snack on or a kid can get a snack if he forgot his snack or didn't bring enough (literally I've had kids show up with a bag of celery or carrots but realistically that is basically no calories). Yes, they can eat my eggs and drink my whole milk if they want to and can. A perk to this is that I will tend to eat healthier when I'm at the gym.

I don't know if some of the higher level gymnasts and elites are using whey protein PWO or trying to get something in during that "magic hour of power". Glutamine and Kre-Alkyn sound like great ideas, but I'm hesistant to tell parents they should be popping VitD capsules, FishOil, Mineral supplements, etc. As well since most coaches are not Nutrition certified or schooled, we would be walking on edgy ground legally.

All our national team is talking food supplements. They all said that they feel better, do better, sleep better,...

trianglechoke7 said:

Creatine is the most scientifically supported supplement there is. It will increase your absolute strength, but may put on some water weight which won't help with bodyweight skills.

Lets not forget it enhance ATP production and replenishment, sattelatite cell donation (really cool) and IGF-1 inside the musclus. Imo one of the few substances which are really worth taking.

Jeffrey said:

trianglechoke7 said:

Creatine is the most scientifically supported supplement there is. It will increase your absolute strength, but may put on some water weight which won't help with bodyweight skills.

Lets not forget it enhance ATP production and replenishment, sattelatite cell donation (really cool) and IGF-1 inside the musclus. Imo one of the few substances which are really worth taking.

It can't be more true, I agree.

Here's Part 1 of a two part series Lyle McDonald wrote on supplements:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle ... art-1.html

Here's what Martin Berkhan wrote:

http://leangains.blogspot.com/2010/01/s ... nd_09.html

Ido Portal said:

Quality Fish Oil(1 gr per each percent body fat you have).

Great recommendations, few questions on fish oil.

Is 1 gram per % body fat more suited towards a strength oriented goal (rather than a mass oriented goal)? What do you think about Poliquin's recommended 30-45 grams per day? (I'm assuming this is for a mass oriented goal)

I estimate my body fat to be around 7-10%, so 7-10 grams sounds a bit more appealing to me. I also try to consume fish at least once per day so supplementation is not my sole source (preferably fresh from the wet market, but it usually ends up being canned tuna), are there any particular fish that you would recommend for a high content of fish oil?

Oh and one more, what do you recommend for water? I currently shoot for 4 liters a day plus or minus till my urine is straw colored.

Much thanks,

Johnny.

Tsunaman,

1 gr per %bf is a good rule and easy to remember, but I have seen great results with much higher dosages in cases of:

1. Obesity.

2. Inflammatory situation, both silent or full blown. (Including very high volume training)

3. Platue in fat-loss under the 8% BF.

As for fish, Salmon of course. Wild Red Sockeye Salmon is the best type. Also, sardines are great. (Small fish lower on the food chain are less likely to be contaminated) Get away from Tuna.

Nobody knows exact numbers for water intake, if they tell you differently they are lying. I suspect it is highly individual. In the army I've seen people get dehydrated even though they were drinking large amounts of water, and others without so much drinking were fine.

But, having said that, your water intake sounds reasonable, healthy and supportive of your goals.

Dont make too much cortisol over this.... Thats also very important.

Ido.

This thread is supreme.

I'm ready to begin basic supplementation, but the options are dizzying. Every product line claims to have the optimum ratio of EPA/DHA, etc., but no two are alike! From word of mouth alone I was ready to purchase from Poliquin's UK site, but as I reside in America I was curious if there were any comparable products closer to home. I'm most interested in fish oil and the chelated magnesium and zinc Mr. Ido Portal spoke of. ANY assistance would be EXTREMELY appreciated - I'm lost!

Kickwell, order from the poliquin US site...

Also, you can check out Designs For Health, Pure Encapsulations and Jonny Bowden's website. I have found those to be brands you can rely on.

Ido.

:oops: I've never felt sillier. :oops:

Thank you very much - I'll be ordering today!

Ido, much thanks for the response. Since the below do not apply to me ( though silent inflammation might be one to watch for) , I'll err later end of my BF estimate so as to have a greater margin of error and take 10 grams per day. I assumed salmon was the best but didn't know tuna was not good. Low chain fish being less contaminated is congruent with basic science knowledge of biological magnification of toxins like mercury, nice to see a basic college course having real life applications.

Kickwell, I'm no expert, but Poliquin supports rotating fish oil supplement sources frequently and varying the ratios. As Ido said earlier, buy in small batches and rotate. I've used a multi-vitamin from pure encapsulations as prescribed by a physical therapist back when I was competing and their quality is great, I'm sure the same is true for their fish oil.

Eagerly awaiting your list Ido, thanks for all the information you are providing

Does anyone have useful articles to read up on calcium, magnesium and zinc supplementation?

ts00nami said:

Ido, much thanks for the response. Since the below do not apply to me ( though silent inflammation might be one to watch for) , I'll err later end of my BF estimate so as to have a greater margin of error and take 10 grams per day. I assumed salmon was the best but didn't know tuna was not good. Low chain fish being less contaminated is congruent with basic science knowledge of biological magnification of toxins like mercury, nice to see a basic college course having real life applications.

Kickwell, I'm no expert, but Poliquin supports rotating fish oil supplement sources frequently and varying the ratios. As Ido said earlier, buy in small batches and rotate. I've used a multi-vitamin from pure encapsulations as prescribed by a physical therapist back when I was competing and their quality is great, I'm sure the same is true for their fish oil.

Yep. Even Salmon is fairly high on the food chain. At least in the US, farmed salmon is actually safer than wild salmon unless the wild salmon is from Alaska. The farmed fish get feed, not wild fish. I have no idea how that might affect fat ratios in farmed salmon. The anchovies and sardines are your safest bet, but salmon tastes so mmm mmm good!

Get away from Tuna.

Why?

Also, we're talking about the actual fish here, not just the fish oil, right?

Tuna fish eat tons of smaller fish, so they build up very high levels of mercury. In fact, if you eat nothing but tuna for about a month at all your meals you can start developing severe mercury poisoning. People have done it lol!

Just bought some cans of sardines today

Thanks for the hint. I think I'm learning more about nutrition in the last few weeks than in my entire life

@ tsoonami:

Something to read on drinking

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Articles ... aspx?ID=30

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Articles ... aspx?ID=31

Thank you very much, Tsoonami! I missed that information, and it seems vital! I really appreciate it!

This site is honestly amazing; everyone is so helpful!

Farmed have terrible O3:O6 fat ratios. Just like grain fed cattle have much higher levels of O6 and very low O3 while grass fed have very good O3:O6 ratios.

Wild is what you want... but then you have the mercury issues.

So it's a trade off....

Yea, that kinda sucks. I figured there would be an issue with farmed salmon similar to the milk from grainfed cattle. Fortunately salmon's relatively expensive so I don't eat it often enough to worry lol!