Pancake & Middle split

I think I'm finally starting to get that these are two different things. Similar, but different. A perfect middle split has the legs split out 180 degrees, while the pancake has the legs out less than 180.  The middle split can have the torso both on the ground and upright, whereas the pancake usually refers to the torso on the ground. Correct me if I'm wrong: with torso on the ground in both splits, the main difference is in the hip position. In a middle split, the hips are completely open, butt cheeks not on the ground, and lower back completely in front of the legs. In a pancake, however, the hips are relatively closed, butt cheeks on the ground, and lower back between the thighs. Am I understanding it correctly?

I feel my pancake is kinda a hybrid between the two. My legs can't go out 180 degrees, but my butt cheek tend to roll away from the ground, which lets the lower back a bit too much out in front of the legs. This causes me to internally rotate the legs, and toes rolling in... Am I thinking it right?

Nice one Jin!  It surely helps to understand these different positions

@Étienne Lajeunesse Thanks!  I just had an idea, and was so excited to have found picture demonstrations online.

This picture below (my current pancake form) may help understand my description of a “hybrid” pancake (and is not a good form).

10 minutes ago, Jin Liu said:

@Étienne Lajeunesse Thanks!  I just had an idea, and was so excited to have found picture demonstrations online.

This picture below (my current pancake form) may help understand my description of a “hybrid” pancake (and is not a good form).

As an hybrid, I would say it is one.  But don't forget that coach states in the middle split videos to keep the hips externally rotated for the pancake.

Now, I suppose we can play with it and try to get to a full split pancake! 

That being said, I dream of the day to do the full pancake! I'm getting to it ahahah

But nice one though

1 hour ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

 

As an hybrid, I would say it is one.  But don't forget that coach states in the middle split videos to keep the hips externally rotated for the pancake.

Now, I suppose we can play with it and try to get to a full split pancake! 

That being said, I dream of the day to do the full pancake! I'm getting to it ahahah

But nice one though

It’d be fun to experiment. I know it’ll take me a looong time to get the full split. In the pic above, I can’t keep my butt on the ground. I think that’s my main problem.

Interestingly, the more I flex my legs and try to hold my torso out above the ground, the worse the form gets. I tried to keep external rotation of the hips. But it seemed the more I try, the worse my form gets. If I just relax and let my torso drop to the ground, my butt comes back to the ground as well, and my toes are pointing in the correct direction... not sure if it makes sense. You might have to try it to see what I’m talking about

You should still strive to push your butt out .if the hips show some rolling movement with the butt lifting from the floor it is a sign of a partial hamstring stretch.

2 hours ago, Alessandro Mainente said:

You should still strive to push your butt out .if the hips show some rolling movement with the butt lifting from the floor it is a sign of a partial hamstring stretch.

Push the butt out in the forward direction, and open the legs more? In order to keep the butt on the floor, more flexible hamstrings are the key? @Alessandro Mainente

I think I understand what he means.  It's like in pike, you always strive to stick your glutes out so you can get further.  In this way, it stretches the hamstrings.  

Same here for the pancake, but instead of being in pike, you're in straddle.

49 minutes ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

I think I understand what he mean.  It's like in pike, you always strive to stike your glutes out so you can get further.  In this way, it stretches the hamstrings.  

Same here for the pancake, but instead of being in pike, you're in straddle.

Thanks!  will try that next time.

Tried to stick the butt out more backwards while in the deepest pancake position. My legs and toes still roll in, but I kinda sorta feel better than last time. I didn't have to resist as hard. A slight improvement for flexibility is a good improvement.   Still need a more flattened lower back.