PNF

Hi,

Is it good to use PNF in the stretch series and iMs? I know it could be pretty hard on the body when done in long term, but do you suggest using this method once in a while?

Thanks!

1 hour ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Hi,

Is it good to use PNF in the stretch series and iMs? I know it could be pretty hard on the body when done in long term, but do you suggest using this method once in a while?

Thanks!

I do not recommend it; It is best one on one. It is not hard on the body as it fascilitates the neuromuscular system where needed. It uses appropriate resistance (or assistance) when needed based on evaluation and with manual contacts provided by a practitioner. PNF, my postgraduate work and specialty, has been watered down big time and mostly used incorrectly in its transition from its neurological roots to the fitness industry.  It is, however, a cornerstone of my physical therapy practice and my personal training.

12 hours ago, Ryan Bailey said:

I do not recommend it; It is best one on one. It is not hard on the body as it fascilitates the neuromuscular system where needed. It uses appropriate resistance (or assistance) when needed based on evaluation and with manual contacts provided by a practitioner. PNF, my postgraduate work and specialty, has been watered down big time and mostly used incorrectly in its transition from its neurological roots to the fitness industry.  It is, however, a cornerstone of my physical therapy practice and my personal training.

Hi Ryan, thanks for the reply.

So, as I understood, you don't recommend unless it's done by a therapist?  What are the kind of mistakes that could happen? 

I often used PNF in my early practiced before GB and it worked pretty well without over doing it.

The PNF in order to be used by yourself without external work needs to know a few about joints range of motion, muscles origin and insertion and much more than these 2 things you need to be very strong, the risk it is the overtraining. I noticed that the gain with PNF was much bigger when completing F3 / F4 for the upper body.

I consider the PNF an ADVANCED technique reserved to experienced athlete.

4 hours ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Hi Ryan, thanks for the reply.

So, as I understood, you don't recommend unless it's done by a therapist?  What are the kind of mistakes that could happen? 

I often used PNF in my early practiced before GB and it worked pretty well without over doing it.

This is what I am saying:

The PNF instruction found on the internet as it relates to stretching, sport, or general fitness, is not PNF. 

So the mistakes that could happen is not doing PNF correctly and following shitty instruction.

36 minutes ago, Ryan Bailey said:

This is what I am saying:

The PNF instruction found on the internet as it relates to stretching, sport, or general fitness, is not PNF. 

So the mistakes that could happen is not doing PNF correctly and following shitty instruction.

I agree with Ryan on this regard. PNF techniques require a great deal on muscular control to perform safely and effectively.

Improper cuing or execution will not only be ineffective but also potentially dangerous.

Static stretching and dynamic stretching will be more than enough at this stage of training.

Ok. The 4,000 hours I worked at the Northern California facility where PNF was originally developed and instructed, gave me a pet peeve (if you hadn't noticed)  : "PNF and Stretch". I like everyone's input thus far; but PNF is much more than stretch. 

For the OP: All you need is the stretch series and iM's to make serious gains; not adding PNF. But when I taught PNF to therapists; I rarely taught stretch; it's origin is so much more comprehensive, and more interesting than gaining ROM!

Ryan

6 hours ago, Ryan Bailey said:

Ok. The 4,000 hours I worked at the Northern California facility where PNF was originally developed and instructed, gave me a pet peeve (if you hadn't noticed)  : "PNF and Stretch". I like everyone's input thus far; but PNF is much more than stretch. 

For the OP: All you need is the stretch series and iM's to make serious gains; not adding PNF. But when I taught PNF to therapists; I rarely taught stretch; it's origin is so much more comprehensive, and more interesting than gaining ROM!

Ryan

Can you elaborate? It's interesting

13 hours ago, Étienne Lajeunesse said:

Can you elaborate? It's interesting

I can a little; Which part? I don't want to be too boring. 

20 hours ago, Ryan Bailey said:

PNF is much more than stretch. 

But when I taught PNF to therapists; I rarely taught stretch; it's origin is so much more comprehensive, and more interesting than gaining ROM!

This part

Basically PNF is:

An Evaluation of an individual through a series of specific movements.  The positions begin prone or supine (on either your back, or belly) and then follow a specific sequence of movements all the way to standing, then gait and locomotion patterns.  Each position is evaluated for smooth, coordinated movement.  Any deficit in movement (as it relates to neuromuscular function) along these progressions guide necessary:

Manual therapy interventions or treatments (Here is where you find the contract relax technique found in most stretch instruction) This may be common in sport, when mobility is the deficit. The primary component for learning PNF is the interaction of the practitioner and the patient in order to set up success.  The manual therapy component that facilitates a movement takes a long time to learn, as you learn manual contacts of the skin and body positions that most stimulate specific areas of the brain. Remember, the origin of PNF worked primarily with neurological rehab patients. To be brief, there are other techniques that are also beneficial I can quickly touch upon:

Combination of Isotonics: This technique utilizes Eccentric, Isometric, and Concentric contractions, with adequate Intensity and repetition to gain command ( or proprioception) of a movement.  This does NOT have to be end range. I have applied this to reinforce a stretch gain (AWAY from end range) following stretch series progress. This is a technique that has good success with my patients with a stroke', brain injury, or spinal cord injury. Any position is manually assisted or resisted by the person applying the PNF to complete the specific isotonic in a smooth, coordinated manner.

• This is a small taste of PNF... sorry, it is sort of difficult providing a description of what I do for work over the forum (And that would be very boring ). 

On a personal note, (the interesting part for me, and the initial reason I started with @Coach Sommer's program), is that I have taken the movements learned through the GymnasticBodies curriculum and applied PNF at times with myself, treating each lack of movement as a deficit in my physical therapy, PNF progression. 

Nice @Ryan Bailey!

Thanks for that! I never saw it this way, neither I really understood it before.

 I sure understand it's way more complete (and complicated ;)) than your description, but where (and how?) exactly does it apply to GST and, further more, why is it more beneficial to advanced athletes?

You are welcome @Étienne Lajeunesse; I enjoy talking about this! Regarding your other question, my experience is regaining function in a rehab context. @Alessandro Mainente and the other coaches might have more answers regarding PNF and GST specifically. That topic might be my doctorate thesis someday though... who knows! 

PNF it is basically strength training applied to stretching. This will lead to superior control on a range of motion and cold flexibility.

BUT as a strength training, it taxes a lot the body. you need to be stronger, you need to be able to recover faster, qualities of advanced athletes.

This means that the stretch courses are much more suitable and useful while you are building up work capacity and a greater speed of recovery with foundations.