Saturated fats

Disclaimer: I am not saying saturated fats are bad for you, I am merely pointing out that there are reasons people have said this and suggesting caution.

slizzardman said:

That's so true. If you look into it, the whole idea about saturated fats came from ONE SINGULAR STUDY in the 1950's, and that's what sparked the use of margarine and other fat replacements. There were several other studies during the same time period that had completely different results, and nearly all of the research from then until now has leaned heavily towards saturated fat not being a problem.

On the other side of the fence, there are not high incidences of heart problems or strokes among native populations that have higher saturated fat intakes. This has been pretty well documented, and adds weight to the suggestion that artificially modified fats along with high levels of processed high glycemic carbohydrates are in fact the culprits behind most of the damage done by modern diets.

Reply:

dlsso said:

slizzardman said:

That's so true. If you look into it, the whole idea about saturated fats came from ONE SINGULAR STUDY

As I said before, if you want to discuss this more in depth it should be in a different thread. I'm not going to get into it any further in this thread, but here are just a handful of guys who might beg to differ with the "one singular study" claim:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12618280

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7644455

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9366580

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10584044

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9021429

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7861873

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11348573

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8172107

Further response:

trianglechoke7 said:

I looked at your first two references and I noticed a pattern emerging. You pick illegitimate studies.

The first study only looked at the effect of different fats on cholesterol. However, this does not prove that saturated fats actually have an effect on mortality or instances of heart disease. You are merely ASSUMING that it does by the effect on blood lipids. Real proof will show a DIRECT link between mortality/heart disease and saturated fat intake.

The second study was on the seven countries study. The 7CS is pure baloney as the 7 countries were purposely picked to show a bad affect for saturated fats. Given the data that was available at the time, you could of picked 7 different studies and got the exact opposite result.

I never said I agreed with the studies. I was merely pointing out that the notion that a single flawed study was perpetuating the myth was nonsense. This is just a handful of dozens of such studies that have correlated saturated fats with increased risk of CVD. Whether or not all of them happened to be flawed is another thing entirely.

I looked at the third study. I can't remember what the what problem with the Nurses Health Study was off the top of my head but from the abstract I can see that the CI lands on both sides of 1. Maybe that was it, or there were others.

But of course people have reasons for believing what they do, just doesn't mean they have logical reasons for what they do.

Slizzard is in this case correct, in that a lot of research has been predicated on Keys' Seven Countries Study from the late 50's.

The Lipid Hypothesis, which it supports, does not have much (or any?) supportive data. There are several large-scale studies that disprove it.

As for the host of studies mentioned quoted above:

1.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12618280

Does not note causality or correlation, or even mention, the relationship of saturated fat to CHD.

2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7644455

Keys' Seven Countries Study, on which this study was based, is an epidemiological study, the results of which have been refuted by its own complete data.

To see a similar study from 21 countries, including Keys' initial 7, encompassing more than 10 million people during 10 years, which has at this time evinced absolutely no causation or correlation between saturated fat intake and CHD, see the World Health Organization's MONICA Project. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3335877

3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9366580 Nurse's Health Study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10584044 Nurse's Health Study

The results of the Nurse's Health Study, from which these two reports were taken, suggest that total fat has no relation to heart disease risk.

4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9021429 Trivandaram Study ---

The first sentence notes only an "association" between saturated fat and hypertension. Words like "association" are very important. Note the first sentence: "Saturated fat intake appears to be a risk factor of insulin resistance."

High insulin levels increase the transfer of fat and cholesterol into the arterial walls and trigger the beginning of hypertension and arteriosclerosis.

So they are in effect associated. But not correlated. Saturated fat does not cause hypertension.

5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7861873

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11348573

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8172107

These studies demonstrate ways in which cholesterol can be lowered.

They do not demonstrate correlation, causation or even association with CHD.

Eat your butter. Drink your whipping cream.

best,

jason

Sat fat, with a healthy diet (non-processed foods), is VERY good for you.

Yep, those last 3 studies didn't even look at CVD as an outcome, they looked at blood lipids.

I'm curious. Do you guys agree with the whole HDL good LDL bad thing, or is that something you view as myth as well?

I know what you are assuming.

If one admits that cholesterol is a factor in heart disease, and that saturated fat makes cholesterol "worse," then it follows that saturated fat is bad.

But if studies have failed to show a direct link between saturated fat and CVD, then how do you explain the discrepancy?

dlsso said:

I'm curious. Do you guys agree with the whole HDL good LDL bad thing, or is that something you view as myth as well?

Lipoproteins are required for the body.

It's when you jack them up with inflammation and oxidation you get stuff like oxLDL (oxidized LDL) which promotes atherosclerosis (oxLDL gets stuck, inflammation occurs, macrophages congregate and get stuck ----> plaques).

When they body is working fine they are neither good nor bad by themselves. They just are.

It's like asking if you need mitochondria... hell yeah you do. But when they get turned off in some cases you get cancer (as p53 mediated cell apoptosis goes through mitochondrial death pathway). 50% of cancers have p53 mutations.

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Also, for reference the common LDL tests do not take into account the various LDL particles. The one that I referenced above (oxLDL) is the primary culprit in plaques. Most other LDL is huge and fluffy and harmless. Most LDL numbers on reports you're reading off blood tests and YES EVEN MOST OF THE STUDIES mean nothing with LDL breakdown.

Of course, if cholesterol and LDL is high let's get everyone on statins.. yay. More money for big pharma. Big pharma could give a rat's ass about proper science.

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BTW, on a little tanget the article about H pylori in discover magazine was a particularly good illustration of the money grubbing. Here's a nice summary.

Barry Marshall met Robin Warren, a pathologist interested in gastritis, during internal medicine fellowship training at Royal Perth Hospital in 1981. Together, the pair studied the presence of spiral bacteria in association with gastritis. The following year (1982), Helicobacter pylori was cultured for the first time and they developed their hypothesis related to the bacterial cause of peptic ulcer and gastric cancer.

In 1984, while at Fremantle Hospital, Marshall fulfilled Koch's postulates for H.pylori and gastritis in a well-publicised self-administration experiment, in which he drank a culture of H.pylori.

Persevering despite widespread skepticism, Marshall also came up with combinations of drugs that killed the H.pylori bacteria and eliminated ulcers permanently.

The hypothesis that H.pylori is a causative factor of stomach cancer was accepted in 1994 by the World Health Organisation.

This work has now been acknowledged as the most significant discovery in the history of gastroenterology and is compared to the development of the polio vaccine and the eradication of smallpox.

Took more than 13 years for the medical community to accept it... why? Because pharma + docs were making a killing off selling antacids to help alleviate ulcers (keep them coming back) and performing stomach removals instead of killing off the bacteria. Fail.

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P.S. Sorry for ranting!!

I'm pretty tired of how people keep telling me that I'm gonna get clogged arteries from eating 4-6+ eggs with bacon every morning...

My skin looks better, I feel better,.. it's all peachy. If you eat right.

trianglechoke7 said:

I know what you are assuming.

If one admits that cholesterol is a factor in heart disease, and that saturated fat makes cholesterol "worse," then it follows that saturated fat is bad.

But if studies have failed to show a direct link between saturated fat and CVD, then how do you explain the discrepancy?

That doesn't answer my question, but it is very perceptive of you.

As for braindx, I found your post informative. You're suggesting then that the theory is true but only in the sense that it's oxLDL causing the problems. Are you then also suggesting that saturated fats do not increase oxLDL? Is there support for that idea?

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... heart.html

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/09/satura ... troke.html

http://stan-heretic.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... sease.html

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/200 ... sible.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1936 ... t=Abstract

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/fast ... mortality/

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/sh ... php?t=4021

http://charm.cs.uiuc.edu/users/jyelon/lowcarb.med/

http://rachel421-intermittentfasting.bl ... etter.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... wdown.html

http://barrygroves.blogspot.com/2009/10 ... fruit.html

http://openwaterchicago.com/2009/10/22/ ... ve-growth/

http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/2009/10 ... leep-more/

http://robbwolf.com/?p=849

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/11/satura ... ckson.html

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/11/satura ... ciple.html

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/11/satura ... nance.html

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/ ... es-vs.html

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/11/carbs- ... lives.html

http://blog.zeroinginonhealth.com/?p=1388

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/11/drilli ... ology.html

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2009/09/f ... oving.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -diet.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... rials.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -part.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -part.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -part.html

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/20 ... rated-fat/

http://freetheanimal.com/2009/08/alzhei ... t-oil.html

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/ ... tance.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -part.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -part.html

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/ ... actor.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... sease.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... demic.html

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... iding.html

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com ... rides.html

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/saturated-fat-healthy/

http://www.performancemenu.com/forum/sh ... php?t=4040

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... by-dr.html

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com ... iddle.html

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

http://zerocarbforlife.com/?page_id=2

http://blog.zeroinginonhealth.com/?p=1523

http://nutrition-and-physical-regenerat ... mo-bettah/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2016 ... t=Abstract

Braindx only 47 sources try harder!

omegant said:

Braindx only 47 sources try harder!

Doh. I knew I needed more.

For reference this is probably the one you'd find the most illuminating if you want to look at the oxLDL link:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... -part.html

Wholehealthsource has most of the ones specifically on oxLDL from the above. The rest debunk saturated fats as a CVD/atherosclerosis risk factor.

Ok, yeah that last one looks like a good read. I'm excited to learn more about this!

All I know is that saturated fats are yummy. I eat a lot of them and the doctor is quite happy with my cholesterol levels.

I'm not sure if this article has been linked on gym bodies before but it takes a nice look at the dietary fat debate

http://nutritionandhealth.info/download ... ncefat.pdf

Don't forget that the single most important factor in cholesterol control is physical activity! Resistance training alone causes a statistically significant change in HDL/LDL ratios and in many cases overall cholesterol levels.