Is this normal?

Sorry to bug yet again with this topic, but in the last month I couldn't really practice the frog stand that much; I just started getting right into it again these last 3 days, and I noticed some things so I had a question: should you be able to do the frog stand like the one that the kid in the Coach's article is doing (with your knees/legs on the sides of your arms), and the one in which you place your knees behind your arms/elbows?

I just re-viewed some frog stand videos in youtube and most of them were done like the latter, with the knees behind the elbows/arms, not to the sides like the kid in C.'s article, and so I tried doing it like this and I just found out that I can't do it at all! I mean, I can put my knees behind my arms but I lean forward too much that I almost kiss the ground and at best I can do just like 5 seconds of that.

But if I do it with my legs around my arms like in the article I can hold it for 40+ seconds, and now with very good form.

So why is that version so hard for me? Is it maybe that I don't have any flexibility in my legs? That's something else I've been thinking about: that I think I really need to learn how to flex/bend/stretch/whatever my legs.

I mean I'm not like a fat slow person or something, I play tennis so I'm always running a lot, but of course I can't stretch like Johnny Cage of Mortal Kombat when he does his special move.

I looked for a sticky or a thread about how to stretch your legs in the Flexibility area but I didn't find anything.

Knees on the outside of the elbows is probably easier. I've only tried the basic bent arm frog stand that way. I haven't tried it with straight arms aka advanced frog stand as I have work and taught them with knees on tricep or on the inside of the elbow.

But if I do it with my legs around my arms like in the article I can hold it for 40+ seconds, and now with very good form.

So why is that version so hard for me?

I think for most people it was a balance issue with the adv. frogstand (arms straight and locked, knees "behind" the elbows).

I also could hold the normal frogstand (arms bend, legs next to the elbows) until my wrists hurt before trying the adv frog for the first time. Try to balance the adv frogstand in front of your bed or use pillows. You can also try it on parallettes for better control. It will come over time. I'm doing it on my fists now which is harder to balance but better on my wrists and I can hold it for 40 sec+.

This one might be an intermediate version:

heinrich said:

But if I do it with my legs around my arms like in the article I can hold it for 40+ seconds, and now with very good form.

So why is that version so hard for me?

I think for most people it was a balance issue with the adv. frogstand (arms straight and locked, knees "behind" the elbows).

I also could hold the normal frogstand (arms bend, legs next to the elbows) until my wrists hurt before trying the adv frog for the first time. Try to balance the adv frogstand in front of your bed or use pillows. You can also try it on parallettes for better control. It will come over time. I'm doing it on my fists now which is harder to balance but better on my wrists and I can hold it for 40 sec+.

This one might be an intermediate version:

I tried doing it like in the video, but I couldn't. It looks so simple...

Blairbob said:

Knees on the outside of the elbows is probably easier. I've only tried the basic bent arm frog stand that way. I haven't tried it with straight arms aka advanced frog stand as I have work and taught them with knees on tricep or on the inside of the elbow.

So you would say that this kind of frog stand isn't necessary to master in the planche series or to get to the planche?

You know, I was a bit skeptical about the advanced frog stand initially but the wise Slizzardman has changed my mind this position prepares the elbows for straight-arm strain, it necessitates a more pronounced forward lean (which you will need in planche) and it allows for a smoother transition to tuck planche. Preparation for the latter occurs if you make an effort to lift your knees off your elbows while in frog stand - you won't succeed at first but you will learn how to engage the shoulder girdle and how to achieve the necessary full body contraction!

Practice makes perfect. As mentioned before, use parallettes and practice the frog stand in front of a soft couch or something else to cushion any face plants also, the pressure of your knees may feel a bit uncomfortable at first but this will pass... good luck!

PS planche leans are your friend, too!

biomieg said:

You know, I was a bit skeptical about the advanced frog stand initially but the wise Slizzardman has changed my mind this position prepares the elbows for straight-arm strain, it necessitates a more pronounced forward lean (which you will need in planche) and it allows for a smoother transition to tuck planche. Preparation for the latter occurs if you make an effort to lift your knees off your elbows while in frog stand - you won't succeed at first but you will learn how to engage the shoulder girdle and how to achieve the necessary full body contraction!

Practice makes perfect. As mentioned before, use parallettes and practice the frog stand in front of a soft couch or something else to cushion any face plants also, the pressure of your knees may feel a bit uncomfortable at first but this will pass... good luck!

PS planche leans are your friend, too!

Will do. I was actually practicing the tuck planche when I started again, because I really didn't like the FS. The pressure/contraction I got when doing it was very rough, and I could hold it for like 6 seconds but with very bad form and then it would hurt behind my left armpit. If it weren't for that little pain I got almost everytime I would have continued with it, because my right side was fine and I liked it, but I'll better take it easy instead of getting an unnecessary injury at this time.

Also, is leg flexibility any factor in this type of advanced FS? I feel like if I were a little bit more flexible, it would be easier to do it.

Do you mean you have difficulty 'compressing' your knees towards your abdomen/chest? I don't see how this could be a problem, at least not in the FS (I know it can be an issue in tuck planche).

biomieg said:

Do you mean you have difficulty 'compressing' your knees towards your abdomen/chest? I don't see how this could be a problem, at least not in the FS (I know it can be an issue in tuck planche).

No, what you described here would be for the tuck planche, what I am having problems with is with the advanced frog stand, the one in which you put your knees behind your arms/elbows, as opposed to pushing from the sides like the one from C.'s article on the progressions; I can't do that frog stand.

Yes, that's what I was saying I'm not sure what kind of leg flexibility issues you may have with the FS, though...

To clear up, I do teach both the bent and straight arm frogstand.

I have not done or taught the straight arm frogstand with the knees on the outside of the elbow before. That is all. I don't like straight arm frogstand but I value it as a progression.

biomieg said:

I'm not sure what kind of leg flexibility issues you may have with the FS, though...

Well, I would say that I can't get my legs "up" enough, like if I wanted to hold them against my chest in the tuck pl, or higher in either variation of the FS, I can't do that...

Well, those are two different things. As I mentioned before (and you just said it yourself too), in tuck planche your legs are not supported by your arms, therefore you need to pull your knees towards your torso to prevent them from touching the floor. That's active flexibility and that may be a problem initially, although in that case it's likely to be a strength issue and not a flexibility issue (I'm sure you can pull your knees close to your chest with your hands when you're sitting).

But in frog stand, your knees are supported by your arms (either on the back or on the sides) and therefore they don't need to come very close to your torso. Flexibility is not the key issue here.

I think you need to provide a picture or video for us to diagnose what the problem is.

Side note I get forearm pain when training the advanced frog stand. I read somewhere here about releasing tension too quickly and I've noticed that definitely affects it. Its only in my left forearm and is way worse when using paralletes. I just train on the floor now even though paralettes were easier(also because I want to progress to doing planche on the floor so I figure I should train it that way anyways). Also a bit of pain when I do alot of volume on handstands as well as the ADV FS work. Anyone had any experience with this pattern of forearm pain?

biomieg said:

Well, those are two different things. As I mentioned before (and you just said it yourself too), in tuck planche your legs are not supported by your arms, therefore you need to pull your knees towards your torso to prevent them from touching the floor. That's active flexibility and that may be a problem initially, although in that case it's likely to be a strength issue and not a flexibility issue (I'm sure you can pull your knees close to your chest with your hands when you're sitting).

But in frog stand, your knees are supported by your arms (either on the back or on the sides) and therefore they don't need to come very close to your torso. Flexibility is not the key issue here.

I think you need to provide a picture or video for us to diagnose what the problem is.

Yep. It's not that I'm not flexible at all, it's that I'm just not flexible enough like a karate guy or a gymnast, I'd say I'm just a little more flexible than normal because I have been training that, but you're right that probably isn't the issue. I just did a quick tuck pl test and I can almost touch my chest with my knees.

Yeah I'll try to post a video very soon, maybe even tonight when I digest

code_b said:

I read somewhere here about releasing tension too quickly and I've noticed that definitely affects it.

Yeah I think that's what happened to me when attempting the tuck pl: if I would just get on the floor and get out of it immediately it would hurt a lot behind my left armpit, directly below what says "m. deltoideus" in this picture:

So what I would do was get on my knees very slow and then slowly get out of it when I was already on the ground.

But I'm not even trying the tuck pl right now, I'll better take it slow and master the basics.

yeah thats what I'll be trying to do too. I'm still trying to train while simultaneously rehabbing the forearm(its not too bad which is why I'm not just taking straight time off)but sometimes it gets a little painful.

So is that fs necessary to progress to the tuck planche? Or is it fine to go just with legs to the sides?

Im putting knees on the back of elbows, knees on the side was too easy for me. Bit harder on the back of the arms but you get used to it. I can feel the difference and at the end of my sets I lift off my elbows and "set down" in between my arms so I'm getting a momentary feeling of tuck planche like exertion on each of my sets.

Rampage: It sounds like your shoulders are still getting stronger! A lot of the extra difficulty comes from the center of gravity moving towards the hips in the advanced frongstand as compared to the regular one. 5 seconds isn't bad, really, for starting it off! I'd say keep working on that a few times a week for a few sets while continuing with planche leans and the frogstand work. It is a funky position, but it will pay off with a much faster transition to flat tuck planche once you're ready for tuck, in my opinion.

I can't say it's NECESSARY, since many people who are far past that here have never really spent time on it, but it is definitely a good idea to work on.

Code_b: You better use a lot of heat on the sore elbow and be careful! It's easy to let the elbow pain get out of hand. If it's HURTING, you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. As soon as anything resembles pain, stop. One way around this, which I am using with great success, is to use elastic bands as a spotting tool for tuck planche and advanced frogstand.

slizzardman said:

Rampage: It sounds like your shoulders are still getting stronger! A lot of the extra difficulty comes from the center of gravity moving towards the hips in the advanced frongstand as compared to the regular one. 5 seconds isn't bad, really, for starting it off! I'd say keep working on that a few times a week for a few sets while continuing with planche leans and the frogstand work. It is a funky position, but it will pay off with a much faster transition to flat tuck planche once you're ready for tuck, in my opinion.

I can't say it's NECESSARY, since many people who are far past that here have never really spent time on it, but it is definitely a good idea to work on.

Yeah, the first time I tried it I did like 5-6 seconds!

I've really had to "work harder" since I got here to america, because it's easy to eat a lot! I've certainly been eating a lot more than in my previous country lol. I think I even gained like 14 pounds in my first 2 weeks here! I looked almost the same though, but "buffer", not fat though.

I'll keep trying a few things with this and I'll report in a bit, thanks.

slizzardman said:

Code_b: You better use a lot of heat on the sore elbow and be careful! It's easy to let the elbow pain get out of hand. If it's HURTING, you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. As soon as anything resembles pain, stop. One way around this, which I am using with great success, is to use elastic bands as a spotting tool for tuck planche and advanced frogstand.

Its not really my elbow. I used to have some elbow pain back when I was weight training and can feel my vulnerability to it if that makes any sense. But what my problem is now is forearm splints(Done a bit of researching and this seems to be my problem). If I get into/out of holds slowly(which I should probably do anyways right?) it doesn't cause the same problem that releasing tension quickly does.

But Ill try heat too, can't hurt right?

I call it elbow because the tendons and muscles attach to the humerus and the radius, ulna, or wrist bones/metacarpals. They are involved in elbow flexion, so I consider them part of the elbow. Not the specific joint, but the musculature that runs across it.

Knees to the elbows and, following a progression, further up the arms until the knees are in the armpits is also a lower back/glute, quad flexibility issue. If you cannot do a good forward bend then it's quite possible the knees won't get to the elbows.