Poliquin on stretching: 6-8 weeks to reach max flexibility?

Just read this in an article by Charles Poliquin on T-Nation.

This site might NOT be considered work/family safe:

http://www.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/question_of_strength_april

Charles Poliquin said:

There are three main families of stretching, each with its own advantages and disadvantages. The rule of thumb is, the ones that are good for short-term gains are terrible for long-term gains, and vice-versa.

The key to being very flexible is to use all three methods in the proper sequence. The proper sequence is PNF, then ballistic, then end with static. But never stretch before lifting weights.

In order to get flexible you have to do flexibility training. Sounds obvious, right? But the research is very clear: doing it 20 minutes a day, four days a week to warm-up for workouts does not increase flexibility.

The minimum threshold of flexibility training you need per week to increase flexibility is six hours. The good news is that after six to eight weeks you’ll be as flexible as your genetics will ever allow you to be. After that you can maintain flexibility with only one hour a week.

So if you’re serious about getting flexible you need to specialize in it. The good news is that once you’re flexible, then you’re flexible, with just a little maintenance every week.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Mainly the paragraph I have bolded in the middle about it only taking 6-8 weeks to reach your genetic potential for flexibility!?

Cheers,

George.

I know you will need a while and to increase ROM it will take ALOT of stretching. But as to an exact hour I believe it's completely dependent on the individual.

As to the bolded paragraph, I have heard this thrown out there numerous times by more respectable sources. What they don't say is that it will hurt. It will hurt a good amount because it involves a very regimented routine just like a workout. Some times one day on, one day off works. I've also seen three day patterns as suggested by Pavel.

I'm fairly certain they're correct in saying 6-8 weeks. I'm going to test this when I have time during the summer. School and my usual life makes it impossible to add in yet another routine.

Charles

Thanks Charles,

I have one of Pavel's stretching books, but not had time to read it yet. I was hoping I might have had time to add some proper stretching into my training while my poor old elbows recover fully - but six hour-long sessions per week!?

Do you know anything about a cut-off point below which you won't make any significant gains, whether it would it be better to work fewer longer sessions, or slightly shorter and more often!? It's probably in the book, so I better go read it. Like you said, I might just wait for the summer.

Cheers,

George

George,

From what I've read, which concurs with Poliquin, is after you've achieved your desired levels of flexibility, you can severely throttle back on your intensity and frequency to maintain your new levels of flexibility. Probably after 2-3 months intense, consistent stretching you could cut back.

I haven't had a chance to read the article yet, but it looks like a very classic Poliquin answer. The thing to understand is he's very much for high-intensity. Basically, the shortest timeframe for the most results so he can start working on the next deficient biomotor ability. The same timeframe for conditioning/maintenance is true for aerobic endurance as well.

Hi all,

Since my darned elbows are needing a little more time off, I'm going to be adding some proper stretching into my workouts for a while. Be interesting to see how it goes, since I've never really bothered with flexibility training in the past.

In terms of this six hour minimum ...does anyone know if this is referring to stretching in total, or per muscle group stretched?

Initially I'm just planning to work on hip flexors and hamstrings, and I am hoping that since it's only two muscle groups 20-25 minutes per day (most days) will be enough to see some reasonable gains? I'm planning to do some PNF and/or loaded stretching, followed by some static stretching to finish. This will either be at the end of a workout, or entirely separate. I find stretching very tedious, but once I see some gains I will feel a lot more enthusiastic about it and probably add some more in.

Also, is it necessary with stretching to ease off the throttle from time to time, as with strength training? Or is it best to just keep going in a linear fashion until you reach your goals? Should I expect to hit regular plateaus, and what is the best way to deal with them?

Any and all advice gratefully recieved.

Many thanks,

George.

Personally I think that article sounds incorrect.

I mean, yes, maybe after six weeks you would really plateau but I doubt your genetics would stop you getting more flexible after all genetics play a factor, a portion of the result/s. Six hours seems excessive to me that's roughly 43 minutes a night, I think a stretching session (flexibility/end of workout) should last between 15-30 minutes. But if he's talking about whole body then I guess it's not so wild.

Elaborating on the genetic factor, take Coach Sommer's students I doubt every single one of them has the genetic 'factors' to get their nose to their knees in pike it's hard work, consistency and dedication. Genetics control genetical things (don't know a better way to describe it) like height (although things like diet can affect this one), eye colour, hair colour, dimensions (arm length, foot size, etc), etc. Personally me and some of my family have quite big shoulders and V-shape upper body. For some of us it's very natural and they don't need to exercise much at all to keep that shape and others it's how they build (when they get more muscular as a result of working out) I fit in the middle. I reckon this helps me with handstand work but so does my actual handstand work.

Pretty much in conclusion I feel that for some people genetics may play a big part in their flexibility whether they be very flexible or inflexible. For others it might not affect it one way or the other. Just saying six hours a week for six weeks is extremely vague and genral. Think of it this way one person may be naturally (genetics) very strong but is horrible at recovering after workouts whereas another person might be extremely weak yet can workout day-after-day due to his natural recovery ability.

That's a long post even for me,

Ed

Hi George,

Just thought I'd give you roughly my routine (can't give my whole champion routine away :wink: ) for hamstrings:

1) Light Pike (point toes on this one), don't push it just bring to stretching point not *actual pain hold for 20-30 seconds, isometric squeeze for 10-20 seconds go down lower for 10 seconds passive (how long does pavel suggest for isometric holds or in his words 'contract release'?)

2) Caterpillar Walks, start in the starting hindu or divebomber push up position with feet together, then walk your feet towards your hands keeping your legs straight and striving to keep your shoulders open (straight legs is more important though) stop when you reach a good stretch and hold for 5-10 seconds (personal preference) actively pulling your stomach to your legs, then walk your hands out as far as you can while maintaining a hollow body. To incorporate stretching your calves keep your whole foot planted on the ground as lo as you can and once you reach the point where you can't actively push it towards the ground. These can also be done backward by walking the hands towards the feet, I suggest doing both ways.

3) Hard Pike, same as number 1 except really get the stretch going (should be on the border of *actual pain)

4) Pike Wheel, using an ab wheel of some sort (actual ab wheel, billy-cart axel with wheels on, skateboard, etc) which you can put your feet on, personally I simply use a skateboard. Same performance guidelines as regular ab wheel and caterpillar walks. This one is pretty much an advanced variation of caterpillar walks and ab wheel, it will help with, a good active pike which will help with many strength skills (V-sits, hanging leg lifts, manna, press handstands, basket hang, and nearly all holds or movements which require active pikes), stretching the hamstrings, working your abs (which'll get you the great six pack) and whole body. Caution: if user is overenthusiastic will result in extremely sore abs

You could also include V-sits (hanging and/or support) and standing pikes (weighted and/or unweighted). Owww and with the Ab wheel if your inflexible (or even if you are flexible) you could hold it with your hands rather than feet actually I would suggest both ways, if you are flexible raise your feet when holding 'wheel' with hands. With V-sits and even ab wheel I prefer to include active stretches (ones which are exercises but require active flexibility for proper execution) in my workout. I will still put the ab wheel in my stretching session however I focus on holding the compression and maximizing the stretch and not sets or reps.

two very long posts in one day. But I'm in a good mood, had my first good long sleep in a while and it's a long weekend. George do you have an equivalent to Anzac day in England?

anyway hope this helps people,

Ed

*actual pain, in stretching there is a point where you reach a stretch and a point where you reach actual pain (feels like muscle is about to rip or pull it probably won't just feels like it should) stretching should be performed in that stretching zone, you should start light and work close to the point of pain then work back to the light stretches. It may take some experimenting to find where actual pain starts to set in a good test is to do a seated pike bring to a decent stretch then have a someone put their hands on your back and slowly increase the pressure when you reach the point of pain stop!

Hey Ed,

Thanks for the info ...be careful you don't get a repetitive strain injury from all that typing!!

Ha, ha ...I don't remember the last time I got a whole nights sleep. I always get dragged out of bed by daughter #1, somewhere between 06:00 and 06:30. Fine in the week, but not so great at the weekend.

We have 2 minutes silence on 11th November, and Remembrance Sunday on the second Sunday of November. On Anzac day, I believe a Dawn Service is held in London at the Australian War Memorial and the New Zealand War Memorial.

Cheers,

George.

Poliquinn is completely incorrect. Realizing your maximum genetic potential for flexibility can no more be developed within an 8 week time frame than your maximum genetic potential for strength could be.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach out of interest what do you think of Pavel's flexibility advice? I notice he has a book out.

I have read the Naked Warrior and found it interesting so also what do you think particularly about his this book (Naked Warrior is about pure strength development).

Sorry if this seems an awkward question but I am thinking of trying the Naked Warrior grease the groove program and don't want to try it if the are major flaws.

Thankyou!

Coach Sommer said:

Poliquinn is completely incorrect. Realizing your maximum genetic potential for flexibility can no more be developed within an 8 week time frame than your maximum genetic potential for strength could be.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I know nothing about nothing. What I do know is that I'm as flexible as a 2x4 (lack of stretching and genetics). If I knew it would take just 6-8 weeks to reach my full potential, I'd focus and get it done.

The reality, FOR ME, is that I don't see any improvement or gains in how I feel or my ROM (which is limited no matter what) for around 2-3 weeks of regular stretching. I am continuing to increase my ROM after 8 weeks.

Now, am I flexible like many of you? Nope. My routine focuses around the hips (stretches done on my back with each leg individually), quads, and hamstrings (on back, with rope around foot, legs individually).

Again, I'm going just off of my experience. And since I never have comfortably been able to touch my toes (after plenty of stretching work), I might not be the best example.

mpalios said:

Coach Sommer said:

Poliquinn is completely incorrect. Realizing your maximum genetic potential for flexibility can no more be developed within an 8 week time frame than your maximum genetic potential for strength could be.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I know nothing about nothing. What I do know is that I'm as flexible as a 2x4 (lack of stretching and genetics). If I knew it would take just 6-8 weeks to reach my full potential, I'd focus and get it done.

The reality, FOR ME, is that I don't see any improvement or gains in how I feel or my ROM (which is limited no matter what) for around 2-3 weeks of regular stretching. I am continuing to increase my ROM after 8 weeks.

Now, am I flexible like many of you? Nope. My routine focuses around the hips (stretches done on my back with each leg individually), quads, and hamstrings (on back, with rope around foot, legs individually).

Again, I'm going just off of my experience. And since I never have comfortably been able to touch my toes (after plenty of stretching work), I might not be the best example.

After Coach's book is released, any of us out here who are unsure of the most efficient way to attain flexibility should be provided with exactly what we need to develop our stretch-knowledge. Anyone following the strength progressions that are the most popular pieces of information right now on this site will surely have realized that they are optimal for athletic development, and that knowledge and specifics on stretching which is yet to come will be equally as effective for gaining flexibility. In good time the knowledge will be passed to us, and in the mean time we patiently and eagerly wait.