Why hasn't BtGB caught on?

jasonmstein said:

Why are there not more (or any) gymnastics equipment (Swedish bars, rings, rope ... even quality pull-up bar set-ups for God's sake. A Smith machine or whatever is ridiculous.) in S&C centers and gyms?

I never even heard of stall bars until last year, and the regular gym at the school doesn't have any kind of bar that would be suitable for levers at all. Luckily the gymnastics gym does have stall bars

Why don't American high schools include fundamental gymnastic exercises as part of their fitness curriculum?

Back in 1978, Gymnastics was pretty much pulled out of American HS due to injury rates. Some HS still have competitive gymnastics, but for the most part it was gotten rid of. This had to do with safety procedures. Sometimes there is still basic tumbling in schools, such as rolls, cartwheels and handstands. Some schools still have ropes around.

As far as basic strength work, there's no good reason for gymnastics to not be a part of the schools. FSP and FBE progressions, taught from a young age, would be incredibly good for building a strong, injury-resistant population and require minimal equipment.

But who would teach it?

slizzardman said:

As far as basic strength work, there's no good reason for gymnastics to not be a part of the schools. FSP and FBE progressions, taught from a young age, would be incredibly good for building a strong, injury-resistant population and require minimal equipment.

We could be a nation of super people.

Some thoughts,

Most people I've introduced to Coach's exercises and equipment, rings in particular, initially kind of scoff.

"You mean, like rings in the Olympics (laughter)?"

The first thing they all try to do is an iron cross. Failure. Then they try to hold a support for longer than 10-15 seconds, bent-armed, shaking. Failure. Then they try one dip, or maybe 5-10 pushups. Failure. That quickly wipes the smile off their face, and they gain a small understanding at the incredible strength that high-level gymnasts must possess to do what they do and make it look so easy. Then they start asking serious questions about the exercises and the progressions, and where to buy rings, etc.

Maybe gymnastics is foreign to a lot of people, other than seeing it during the Olympics. The big emphasis where I live, from toddlers to teenagers, is team sports: soccer, baseball, basketball, lacrosse, football. Very few kids are in gymnastics.

Many people are also interested in the quick fix. They don't want to dedicate the time this program requires.

I think Coach's excellent material will have much more success at "catching on." He's taken years of experience and expertise and put it in a format that, I think, appeals to both beginners and fitness enthusiasts alike. I think his material will continue to generate interest because:

1 - It's easy to follow and understand

2 - It doesn't cost an arm or a leg for what I consider the basics, like rings and parallettes, compared to other home gyms

3 - The progressions for the exercises make it completely adaptable for all athletic abilities

4 - We have this great forum with many knowledgeable and willing people to provide support

5 - It's fun

6 - It's effective

7 - It doesn't take a long time to get a complete workout

I've introduced rings and BtGB to anyone i talk with interested in fitness, working out, whatever. To date, I've convinced my three brothers, my uncle and his son, my friend from college, two of my neighbors, and 6 of my co-workers to buy rings. Some of them have bought BtGB. One of my co-workers convinced his dad and both his brothers to buy rings as well. My wife tells my I should be earning some sort of commission.

Anybody who comes to visit who hasn't already tried, gets to sample some ring work, parallette work, and thumb through BtGB.

Why?

Because it's the best.

trianglechoke7 said:

But who would teach it?

PE Teachers. It'd have to be free now since PE funding is being pulled everywhere.

Seriously though, you get people trained in the basics, like us. You convince the insurance companies of the benefits for them if they manage to lobby the government into implementing basic training here and at least twice a week at work places. Even two sets of 5 exercises a week would get this country on a whole different level of health and wellness. Most exercises are on the floor, and you can do pull ups and dips on rings, small p-bars, and a pull up bar. Welcome to the new, healthy America.

slizzardman said:

healthy America.

Never going to happen :shock: At least not in my lifetime.

slizzardman said:

trianglechoke7 said:

But who would teach it?

PE Teachers. It'd have to be free now since PE funding is being pulled everywhere.

Seriously though, you get people trained in the basics, like us. You convince the insurance companies of the benefits for them if they manage to lobby the government into implementing basic training here and at least twice a week at work places. Even two sets of 5 exercises a week would get this country on a whole different level of health and wellness. Most exercises are on the floor, and you can do pull ups and dips on rings, small p-bars, and a pull up bar. Welcome to the new, healthy America.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Give me some of what you are smokin'. :wink:

In Aus PE classes normally incorporate a lot of sports so kids get to try everything. I know When I was a kid we went to a gymnastics facility and got to play around for a few weeks and learn some of the basics and we did this with just about all major sports. I remember the guy who was teaching us gym offered a hundred bucks to anyone who could do a deadhang muscle up and then L-sit on the high rings, as we were about twelve and no gymnast among us of course no one could do it, I'd love to go back in time and get that hundred bucks tho

Let me dream, guys!!! Jeez!

slizzardman said:

Let me dream, guys!!! Jeez!

I think the best we can do is inspire those around us. And if they inspire all those around them and so on, we might just get somewhere! A random guy at the gym asked me about my diet and we talked for the last 30 minutes of practice, we could of talked longer but I had to go catch the bus. . . that’s one person down. 8)

If memory serves, Coach Sommer once had a coach who trained under him move away and coach HS football with extreme success using minimal equipment and GB related programming.

I know when I go back MMA'ing I'll be the first to rave on about it to the masses. I mean what better exercise for keeping your guard up then planche work? Neck strength/ knockout resiliance- Headstand variations. Pistols for kicking power. Pullup/lever strength for holding people in your guard in BJJ. One arm chins for grip strength in grappling. L-sits for core (apparently one of the most vital areas for strength for the twisting movements in all boxing and kicking). The list goes on. I'm really surprised I don't see more of this type of training in the martial arts world. I read that Bruce Lee did a lot of the basic isometric moves Like L-sits, surely that should give people a clue about the possibilities for blending the two disciplines.

Blairbob said:

If memory serves, Coach Sommer once had a coach who trained under him move away and coach HS football with extreme success using minimal equipment and GB related programming.

See, that's what I think is possible. I really believe that even on a professional level this type of training will produce more capable athletes. I still think they need to squat and do occasional heavy benching, but mostly calisthenic work would produce far stronger and more injury resistant athletes.

I think in the States it'll take one big name MMAer to get into it and publicise it for it to really take off. Especially a KO artist, TUF fans will love it.

Outside of major hype I think its gradually taking off amongst people who've been training awhile, who have open minds and want something effective. And lets face it, this stuff is damn effective.

I remember when kettlebells were strange and exotic things, I now see women training with little pink ones at the local park. Cutting edge becomes mainstream eventually but without the same aggressive marketing KB's have had it will take longer.(And don't read that as a knock against Pavel, its a good product and he should sell it as hard as he pleases or that he's responsible for making pink KB's cos I'm sure that's someone's bandwagon jumping!).

wingspan said:

I think in the States it'll take one big name MMAer to get into it and publicise it for it to really take off. Especially a KO artist, TUF fans will love it.

I was reading a book by the most successful olympic coach in history (track and field), and it mentioned that arm hypertrophy can, at a certain point, slow down the velocity of the arm. He was referring to shot putters. I wonder if gymnastics would cause excessive arm hypertrophy such that it would slow down the velocity of a punch.

Triangle- Wouldn't dieting to keep within a weight class keep the hypertrophy down to a minimum? With the emphasis on neurological efficiency.

I'd like to know how much punching power is contributed to with arm strength as I'm sure most of the power is transmitted from the hips. I'm sure the extra arm strength would be great for the clinch and grappling.

I was more making a point about capturing peoples imaginations rather than direct correlation between gymnastics training and KO power. I would however be interested to know how much excessive hypertrophy in the arms would slow a punch down. I've seen some big body builder type guys fighting in the cage(at lower levels) and they look like they are fighting in treacle tho this was I'm sure alot to do with fatigue.

Let's go measure Mike Tyson's biceps and find out.

or his posterior chain.

I vote someone else gets that job.

The majority of punching power comes from the hips and core, the arm should just act like a ball & chain if you have good technique (Jabbing technique exempt). Plus I think serious fighters have the same issue as professional gymnasts in that they train so much that they simply don't get enough calories that they can sustain massive amounts of muscle. There's a massive element of cardio involved in fighting. I used to train at the Thai boxing camps in Thailand in my summer holidays and it was 2 2hour sessions a day 6 days a week. When I was there I ate more than I ever have done in my life and still came back about 20 pounds lighter every time I went. You could train once a day if you didn't have fights coming up, and I think you'd have to if you were doing Gymnastic Strength Training™ as well or you simply wouldn't recover.

wingspan said:

or his posterior chain.

I vote someone else gets that job.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Tyson's back was abominable back in the day. It could eat you for breakfast. Arm strength only has to be high enough to transmit the force generated by the circular motion of the hips and torso during a punch. I have pretty good KO power in both hands, and it has far less to do with my arm size than how fast I make them move with a good body line. I used to hurt people on accident when I was 182 lbs, we'd be sparring and BLOOP! Down they'd go. I didn't even think I was throwing particularly hard.

If anything, gymnastic training allows higher levels of strength to be reached with less hypertrophy, not the other way around.

2 hour two-a-days Thai style is fairly intense, you really would have to eat an awful lot to maintain weight. To some extent they train a little too hard, but they are so small they can get away with it. When you're fighting 5 5 minute rounds, you just need to be able to sustain a high pace for 30 minutes. It doesn't take 4 hours a day to accomplish that lol! Spend most of the time on technique and reaction training, and a few days a week have 30-45 minutes of interval training involving sprints immediately followed by punching and kicking speed drills with short rests inbetween sets. Let me tell you, it works amazingly well.

Anyhow, as far as arm hypertrophy slowing punches, you have to keep in mind that there's going to be a certain ratio between arm length, body size, lean body mass, trained movement, and arm weight that determines the maximal level of hypertrophy for any athlete before which a slowdown in velocity occurs.

Most of the bodybuilder guys slow down because they're in horrible condition. They train to be strong, and fight on the side, so to speak. That may not be how THEY see it, but looking at their performance that's exactly what is happening. You have to train for fighting ability first and foremost after you've built your base level of strength. Too bad there are so few true warriors these days...

Of course you could always keep the volume of your gymnastics training down so that your arms didn't get too big. The same worry is there with weights as well, so I'm not even sure anymore what my concern was.

slizzardman said:

Most of the bodybuilder guys slow down because they're in horrible condition. They train to be strong, and fight on the side, so to speak.

I completely agree. I think even in professional MMA nowerdays it seems to be far more about getting burly looking fighters to beat the crap out of each other than getting skillful fighters to perform. It sometimes looks more like a pub brawl between bodybuilders. I rarely ever see a kick thrown with proper technique like the Thai's in cage fighting. It seems to be much more a case of jack of all trades but master of nothing.

As for the Thai camps, to be fair I only trained 3 minute rounds and did about 20 of various stuff which amounted to about an hour excluding the running and stretching. With rests and waiting for a gap with a trainer on the pads it just tended to take a good two hours. I sure it's probably the same with gymnastics, what with waiting for your turn on equipment etc.

Longshanks said:

I completely agree. I think even in professional MMA nowerdays it seems to be far more about getting burly looking fighters to beat the crap out of each other than getting skillful fighters to perform. It sometimes looks more like a pub brawl between bodybuilders. I rarely ever see a kick thrown with proper technique like the Thai's in cage fighting. It seems to be much more a case of jack of all trades but master of nothing.

HAHAHA!!! More like jackass of all trades!

As for the Thai camps, to be fair I only trained 3 minute rounds and did about 20 of various stuff which amounted to about an hour excluding the running and stretching. With rests and waiting for a gap with a trainer on the pads it just tended to take a good two hours. I sure it's probably the same with gymnastics, what with waiting for your turn on equipment etc.

Yea, but Thailands frikkin hot too! I used to train under Kru Manu N'Toh, he's teaching in Atlanta for anyone who cares, http://www.manuntoh.com. He had 7 active world title belts at the time.

I spent 7 hours a day 7 days a week for a year, 10 years ago, my senior year in high school. Even today I can get in the ring with professionals and at the very least hold my own, and I don't even train lol! It's amazing what focused, high quality training will do for you.