Started by Kyle Courville, February 1, 2010 · 12 Replies · 5,690 Views
I play baseball and I would like to know how it affects the body physiologically. I would like to know mostly about the shoulder and abdominals(I am a pitcher), because after the season ends I want to rebuild my body back so it is equally proportional on both sides (nonthrowing and throwing).
P.S. I used Coach's exercises for two month's before the season started and I feel like a million bucks. My gains from gymnastics are the most solid I've ever had.
Check out articles by eric cressey (http://ericcressey.com/), he writes alot of baseball related stuff.
I second the recommendation for looking at Cressey's website. Gymnastics bodies is not an appropriate workout for the unique imbalances that are caused by pitching. Not saying you can't do some of the stuff we do, but as a program in general it is not appropriate.
Thanks a lot guys that is a great site, but you can't make me quit gymnastics now 
I use gymnastics as offseason general fitness, but I also perform exercises specifically for baseball. As a general fitness program I like gymnastic exercises the most because they can be done almost anywhere.
kyle said:Thanks a lot guys that is a great site, but you can't make me quit gymnastics now
Kyle, read every post in this section of his website multiple times: http://ericcressey.com/baseball-content
There are two ways that you could mess yourself up.
(1) Acts of commission - Incorporating exercises that that may not be appropriate for a pitcher. For example, Cressey frowns upon overhead pressing movements with the humerus in external rotation (for pitchers). This movement occurs in gymnastics when you do handstand pushups on the floor or the Korean HSPU. He might also frown upon exercises where the shoulder is put into extreme extension such as back pulls.
Source: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/overhead_athlete.htm
(2) Acts of omission - not incorporating exercises that fix the unique imbalances created by pitching. For example:
-Throwing shoulder glenohumeral internal rotation deficit (GIRD)
-Lead leg hip internal rotation deficit (HIRD)
-Lead leg hip extension deficit
-Lead leg knee flexion deficit
-Trailing leg hip flexion deficit (tight hamstrings)
-Pec minor
-Sternocleidomastoid
-Long head of triceps
-Throwing elbow extension deficit (secondary to length issues with brachialis and other elbow flexors)
I have to disagree on the basic idea that many of these exercises are not good.
I definitely think that your pitching will suffer if you are doing more gymnastics than pitching, especially with the "acts of comission," but when your pitching practice and strengthening far outweighs the time spent on gymnastics, you're going to be fine. All bodies need balanced strength, no matter what they do. Besides. you can do your HeSPU with whatever hand positions you want. If you're worried about your external rotation, just keep your hands straight.
It is really important that any specific pitcher work be done more than the gymnastics, especially during preseason and game time. Post-season, if you maintain, you'll be ok as long as you work back into top gear for pitching. As long as your sports specific training is the bulk of your training you will be fine.
slizzardman said:I have to disagree on the basic idea that many of these exercises are not good.I definitely think that your pitching will suffer if you are doing more gymnastics than pitching, especially with the "acts of comission," but when your pitching practice and strengthening far outweighs the time spent on gymnastics, you're going to be fine. All bodies need balanced strength, no matter what they do. Besides. you can do your HeSPU with whatever hand positions you want. If you're worried about your external rotation, just keep your hands straight.
It is really important that any specific pitcher work be done more than the gymnastics, especially during preseason and game time. Post-season, if you maintain, you'll be ok as long as you work back into top gear for pitching. As long as your sports specific training is the bulk of your training you will be fine.
Slizzardman, I don't think Cressey even allows his pitchers to do any overhead pressing. I'm inclined go with him as he has one of the best S&C programs in the country for baseball. He's even a go to guy for pro ball players.
Pitchers have poor upward rotation of the scapula (on the throwing side) so they are far more vulnerable to impingement. One of the posters on this board a little while back said that he was having impingement problems with handstands as the fingers forward position has the humerus in external rotation. If Kyle were to even do overhead pressing he would certainly have to keep it to neutral grip HSPU or undergrip koreans on the parallettes. Furthermore, anterior stability of the humerus is very poor which will be tested with back levers, german hangs, back pulls, ect. He needs to be super careful with those.
For those of us that don't put the type of stress on shoulders experienced by pitching these things aren't a problem.
One benefit of gymnastics training for pitching is that it will train "rhythmic stabilization" for the rotator cuff muscles while doing the rings.
First, would it be safe for me to do the following exercises? Front lever, planche, pull ups, planche leans, and maybe every now and thenhandstand pushups if and only if I do them on parallel bar?
Second, I only plan on playing baseball throughout high school(I seriously doubt I'll be good enough to play college ball), so after I am done with high school would it be possible to improve my upward scapualr rotation, restore imbalances, and be able to do exercises such as handsatnd presses and back levers again?
trianglechoke7 said:slizzardman said:I have to disagree on the basic idea that many of these exercises are not good.I definitely think that your pitching will suffer if you are doing more gymnastics than pitching, especially with the "acts of comission," but when your pitching practice and strengthening far outweighs the time spent on gymnastics, you're going to be fine. All bodies need balanced strength, no matter what they do. Besides. you can do your HeSPU with whatever hand positions you want. If you're worried about your external rotation, just keep your hands straight.
It is really important that any specific pitcher work be done more than the gymnastics, especially during preseason and game time. Post-season, if you maintain, you'll be ok as long as you work back into top gear for pitching. As long as your sports specific training is the bulk of your training you will be fine.
Slizzardman, I don't think Cressey even allows his pitchers to do any overhead pressing. I'm inclined go with him as he has one of the best S&C programs in the country for baseball. He's even a go to guy for pro ball players.
Pitchers have poor upward rotation of the scapula (on the throwing side) so they are far more vulnerable to impingement. One of the posters on this board a little while back said that he was having impingement problems with handstands as the fingers forward position has the humerus in external rotation. If Kyle were to even do overhead pressing he would certainly have to keep it to neutral grip HSPU or undergrip koreans on the parallettes. Furthermore, anterior stability of the humerus is very poor which will be tested with back levers, german hangs, back pulls, ect. He needs to be super careful with those.
For those of us that don't put the type of stress on shoulders experienced by pitching these things aren't a problem.
One benefit of gymnastics training for pitching is that it will train "rhythmic stabilization" for the rotator cuff muscles while doing the rings.
I'd have to agree with him on any kind of barbell/dumbbell work, because it encourages some TERRIBLE habits! I do think that the HeSPU in a more neutral grip would be ideal, though obviously if there are any shoulder issues they need to be worked out first, but for him I think exercises like wall runs are much more beneficial, as are cast wall walks. Those all help with stability, where as the HeSPU/HSPU can actually decrease stability if the other work is neglected. And of course, the overhead pressing shouldn't be a huge part of training since that's not the plane pitchers work in. I won't argue that anything he's doing is wrong, because his results speak for himself and I know absolutely nothing about his programs, but it may be that with correct implementation improvements can be made in this area. I don't think anyone can successfully argue that a well balanced and specially trained body won't last longer than a purely specialized body.
My point is that obviously his program should be tailored towards pitching, but that overall strength balance shouldn't be compromised in the process. He doesn't need perfect balance, but he does need enough to prevent injuries. I do think it's pretty important that he is careful and conservative(meaning that he takes his time, not that he limits his progress) with all straight arm work since his elbows are already under a huge amount of stress. It's going to be a long time before he's ready to start doing back pulls, but it's good to warn against jumping into things! 
Kyle, keep in mind that I am not a pitcher. My best friend is, and none of the basic stuff you mention causes him any problems. When people have trouble with their shoulders in HSPU, it's not because HSPU is bad, it's because their shoulders aren't prepared. As a pitcher, you do essentially 100% internal rotation. If you aren't doing specific external rotation work to counterbalance that you're already set up for injury. You will always perform better when you work on overall basic strength and conditioning, but you HAVE to keep in mind that your body has to be able to handle the stresses of practice and games as well, so many of the workouts we do are probably a bit too much for the baseball season. For that time just make sure you scale back your workouts a little so you don't interfere with your pitching. If you're tired from your workout and you pitch, you're much more likely to injure yourself since high velocity technical skills require perfect execution to avoid injuries. You don't want to do that when you're pooped! Just like you wouldn't want to try and do a hurdle race with legs that are tired from squats. One or two sets twice a week during the season will allow you to maintain and probably slowly improve, and in the off season you can go harder and make your big gains. That's how seasonal athletes have to train, there's no other way to ensure safety and high performance.
I will say that you should make sure you spend more time on stability work like wall handstands, wall runs, and cast wall walks than you spend on your HSPU, because for you protecting the shoulder is a primary concern. Trust me, if you're making progress there and just work HSPU for one or two sets once a week you will probably see nearly continual progress. It will be slower perhaps, but you will be protecting your shoulders. Just make sure to be shrugging your shoulders towards your ears during handstand work, the shoulder extension is a key part of building that shoulder stability. And don't neglect your sport specific stuff, that should ALWAYS take priority. That doesn't mean that you disregard this other stuff, but it does mean that you need to make sure you always have more than enough in the tank for your sport specific training.
kyle said:First, would it be safe for me to do the following exercises? Front lever, planche, pull ups, planche leans, and maybe every now and thenhandstand pushups if and only if I do them on parallel bar?Second, I only plan on playing baseball throughout high school(I seriously doubt I'll be good enough to play college ball), so after I am done with high school would it be possible to improve my upward scapualr rotation, restore imbalances, and be able to do exercises such as handsatnd presses and back levers again?
Front levers and all pull-up or multi-planar pullups are fine. The reason pulling with your arms overhead is ok but pushing may not be is because pulling creates more space at the shoulder joint which which means rotator cuff is less likely to be impinged.
Planches I would be careful with because a pitchers elbow takes a lot of stress as well.
Basically, you have to weigh the benefit and risk of these exercises. The benefit is that you will train cool exercises that you want to. The risk is that because you are a pitcher, they present an increased injury risk that doesn't exist for the rest of us. If you were to do these exercises and not get hurt then congrats, nothing is set in stone and they may have helped you be a better pitcher. However, given that there are other exercises that present less injury risk and will improve your performance, why take the risk?
Of course maybe you have none of the problems associated with pitching because you haven't been pitching long enough or frequent enough. I don't know, I don't know anything about you.
As to your question about imbalances, yes, you can improve the imbalances created by pitching. Here's a classic article from t-nation that talks about improving upward rotation without putting your hands over your head (handstands will actually train upward rotation but if you have an imbalance created by pitching you are better off to use other exercises first before you proceed with handstand training, IMO).
slizzardman said:trianglechoke7 said:slizzardman said:I have to disagree on the basic idea that many of these exercises are not good.I definitely think that your pitching will suffer if you are doing more gymnastics than pitching, especially with the "acts of comission," but when your pitching practice and strengthening far outweighs the time spent on gymnastics, you're going to be fine. All bodies need balanced strength, no matter what they do. Besides. you can do your HeSPU with whatever hand positions you want. If you're worried about your external rotation, just keep your hands straight.
It is really important that any specific pitcher work be done more than the gymnastics, especially during preseason and game time. Post-season, if you maintain, you'll be ok as long as you work back into top gear for pitching. As long as your sports specific training is the bulk of your training you will be fine.
Slizzardman, I don't think Cressey even allows his pitchers to do any overhead pressing. I'm inclined go with him as he has one of the best S&C programs in the country for baseball. He's even a go to guy for pro ball players.
Pitchers have poor upward rotation of the scapula (on the throwing side) so they are far more vulnerable to impingement. One of the posters on this board a little while back said that he was having impingement problems with handstands as the fingers forward position has the humerus in external rotation. If Kyle were to even do overhead pressing he would certainly have to keep it to neutral grip HSPU or undergrip koreans on the parallettes. Furthermore, anterior stability of the humerus is very poor which will be tested with back levers, german hangs, back pulls, ect. He needs to be super careful with those.
For those of us that don't put the type of stress on shoulders experienced by pitching these things aren't a problem.
One benefit of gymnastics training for pitching is that it will train "rhythmic stabilization" for the rotator cuff muscles while doing the rings.
I do think that the HeSPU in a more neutral grip would be ideal, though obviously if there are any shoulder issues they need to be worked out first, but for him I think exercises like wall runs are much more beneficial, as are cast wall walks.
My reaction is why train any shoulder stability in the overhead position when you can train it with other exercises if those other exercises are just as beneficial for pitching (or moreso) and present less injury risk than going overhead?
I don't think anyone can successfully argue that a well balanced and specially trained body won't last longer than a purely specialized body. My point is that obviously his program should be tailored towards pitching, but that overall strength balance shouldn't be compromised in the process.
Sure, but he can maintain muscle balance without specifically training overhead pressing.
When people have trouble with their shoulders in HSPU, it's not because HSPU is bad, it's because their shoulders aren't prepared.
I hope no one has taken my comments to mean I think HSPU are bad. Unless an exercise is totally stupid, any exercise can be bad or good depending on the context. I agree with you that a HSPU is great if the shoulders are prepared, but my concern is that a pitchers shoulder will not be prepared. Even with a great S&C program, pitchers shoulders are still messed up.
No worries lol! I am definitely not advocating any overhead work as something that should be done for more than one or two sets a week for a pitcher, and even then I have to agree that pitchers tend to have screwy shoulders and that the shoulders do have to be treated accordingly. Whipping the arm that fast just has its consequences. I think, but do not know for sure, that static work like a few sets of wall handstands would be good for him if his shoulders are ok with it, but I have to concede that that sort of thing has to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I have to rely on what's worked for me, since I couldn't throw at all for months and now I can and say that the chest expander work is truly the best thing to balance out the shoulders. It still has to be approached cautiously, but the chest expanders have incredible rehab and prehab potential when used properly.
Wall runs are helping even more, but I wouldn't have done them months ago when my shoulders were more problematic.
Thanks a lot for all the advice. Reading trianglechoke7's posts makes me realize I need to learn more anatomy and physiology.