Lower back questions starting FS

Hi all,

I need some advice before starting off FS. Below are some pics of my current status. What I've noticed is that I have distinct point in the lower back where the bending occurs when I try to close the angle. Below this point (towards the butt) the back is dead flat, stiff and without flexion. Any ideas what's causing this and how I should approach it? First pic is as low I can go with APT and back straight. Second pic is how it looks if I try to go further. Third pic is my maximum depth not trying to keep my back straight. Fourth pic sitting on the floor trying to keep back straight. Not very impressive, I now. 

Reading through other similar forum posts I first came to the conclusion that (considering where I'm at) should focus on APT and keeping my back straight during pike stretches like I'm doing in the first pic. Yes/no? Or could APT actually be counterproductive and reinforce that stiff/flat portion of the lower back? Any supplementary exercises recommended that would help?t

I have a history of lumbar lordosis which I've been working on (i.e fixing) for some time. I'm doing F1 and are close on MN/PE1->iM (so no Jefferson curls yet). I have'nt had any real issues with my lower back in the past but it's probably one of my weak spots.

Comments and recommendations appreciated.

Sorry for the long post.

Thanks

Hi Thomas a nice simple test for you:

-reach the position where you can still hold the APT

-then when you begin to lose it stop immediately and bend your knees of 10-15°

-if you can now assume the APT then your problem are the long head bicep femoris

I remember a thread from some time ago where it was actually the developed musculature of the back that was making the student look like they had some odd bulging going on when in a pike and Jefferson curl.  I wish I could remember who it was.  Could this be what is making the low back look more bent than it actually is?

Thanks for the quick response.

Alessandro, I did the test you suggested. Bending my knees did a slight improvement of my APT at the point I stopped but going lower was no good I would say. Overall my back still looked the same (i.e with the flat portion or "bulge" if you like). If it helps I could post another picture.

Ryan, I wish that was the case but I'm quite sure I rather lack some of that musculature. 

If I put the question regarding the flat/stiff lower back aside, what should be my strategy doing the pike works in FS, keeping my back straight (pic 1) or going deep (pic 3)?

Hi Thomas, 

I would suggest a mix of both. Try folding into the pike position and play with an apt from here, relax your upper back and neck, but try arching your low back.

Thanks for the input Pauline. So basically I should fold fully (like in picture 3) but as you say, relax my upper back/neck and focus on apt in this position. Correct?

Yes Thomas, please keep us posted  

Hey thomas

i was alerted to your post as I seem to experience the same thing you mentioned (the bulge in lower back) when in certain positions as apparent in the pic so I was interested in what it was suggested to be 

i too struggle with my pike folds and maintaining apt after approx 90deg is difficult for me so I'm also working on this .

how are you progressing since you posted this ?

leigh 

Hi Leigh,

I came to the conclusion that the bulge was a result of short hamstrings and the bad habit of compensating this by bending through the mid back instead. Doing the stretch series I see that when the flexibility in the hamstrings improve that lower portion of my back (i.e the bulge) becomes less noticable and the back has a more "smooth" shape. 

Keep stretching and I'm sure you will see improvement. 

4 minutes ago, Thomas Nordman said:

Hi Leigh,

I came to the conclusion that the bulge was a result of short hamstrings and the bad habit of compensating this by bending through the mid back instead. Doing the stretch series I see that when the flexibility in the hamstrings improve that lower portion of my back (i.e the bulge) becomes less noticable and the back has a more "smooth" shape. 

Keep stretching and I'm sure you will see improvement. 

Ok Thomas thank you for this

i can agree totally with what you say and am sure this is my issue too . I'm as flexible as the most inflexible person from the most inflexible planet in the most inflexible universe ......

which is pretty inflexible ...

still very early stages in foundation and all 3 stretch series so will hopefully improve over time

all the best in your training 

2 minutes ago, Leigh Kettle said:

Ok Thomas thank you for this

i can agree totally with what you say and am sure this is my issue too . I'm as flexible as the most inflexible person from the most inflexible planet in the most inflexible universe ......

which is pretty inflexible ...

still very early stages in foundation and all 3 stretch series so will hopefully improve over time

all the best in your training 

Haha, we're from the same universe then I guess. A good thing; there is room for improvement.

I'm also still working the very basics in the Foundation series. Enjoying it but I'm very humble nowadays, haha.

Thanks. Good luck with your training and stretching too.

Thank you for your post! I can't even get to 90 degrees during a standing pike while maintaining APT. Thank you for making me realise that my lower back has been over compensating for my lack of hamstring flexibility this whole time! I can get a strong hamstring stretch if I focus on APT without even being close to the floor. I'm convinced that this is the source of my lower back pain. Will keep you guys updated with progress as I feel A LOT of people have the same problem.

On 3/11/2017 at 6:17 PM, Andrew Mckeown said:

Thank you for your post! I can't even get to 90 degrees during a standing pike while maintaining APT. Thank you for making me realise that my lower back has been over compensating for my lack of hamstring flexibility this whole time! I can get a strong hamstring stretch if I focus on APT without even being close to the floor. I'm convinced that this is the source of my lower back pain. Will keep you guys updated with progress as I feel A LOT of people have the same problem.

Thanks for sharing Andrew. I was a bit surprised that I didn't find any other posts on this matter before I posted. Like you said it is probably a quite common condition.

I feel like I've learened a lot the last few months. Nowadays I'm really aware of my spinal position, specifically when I bend forward (picking stuff up etc). I try to keep the spine natural at all times, and to really avoid that mid/lower back flexion as much as I can. Since I lack the hamstring flexibility and can't hinge from the waist, I squat. Really just reprogramming my movement pattern. When you hinge forward and you start feeling your tight hamstrings as you try to go lower you should bend your knees NOT flex the mid portion of your back. After a few weeks beeing mindful about this I now feel it's natural in most cases. And I can say that my lower back feels great!

I have a slightly different question related to the lower back:

With some stretch or strength exercises I feel some pain/strain in my lower back (not sure if it's muscular or stretching "pain" etc), for example during the Russian Twist exercise of Core, where I concentrate to force my body into an APT. I also recognized this during a few stretches. Nothing special, I'd just like to know what it its: is it the lack of strength in the lower back, is it lack of strength in the abdominals/the core muscles, or is it the lower back being too tight? A mix of everything?=D 

How can I figure out my weak points? I'd guess for the FS course it's my hamstrings, as I feel those the most during the stretches, but how can I figure out if it's perhaps rather the lower back, the glutes, etc? At the moment I also concentrate on holding the APT (maintaining a higher position with my torso, similar to the first picture in this thread, just a little worse:p) during most of the FS stretches instead of reaching the floor with my hands.

Thank you as always;)

Hi Ferdinand, In the Russian twist variation there is an high involvement of the hips flexor, in your case your hips flexor are stronger then abs. just for my curiosity how much proficient are you in the hollowbody work?

I note this is also something I experienced, with consequences in developing a hollow body shape correctly at the expected pace. I will share my experiences after you do so as not to bias anything 

I'm currently on PE1, Step 9 of the Front Lever progression. I can hold the 5x60s with proper form, but I'm still shaking a little. I just started about 2 1/2 weeks ago, so there's a lot of work to be done.

So in general, when I feel the lower back working pretty hard during an exercise, it comes from relatively weak abdominals/core muscles? By the way, does any of the Foundation elements/progressions train the lower back in particular? 

Yes Ferdinand, abs muscles, yes all the later progression on foundations trains a lot the lower back muscles.

The SL progressions and F3-F4 lower body work trains lower back quite a bit. Of course it comes into play a great deal in dynamic strength and twists -- Coach says this is where the real magic is, which I'm really curious to see given how many lower back issues I've fixed / prevented (as evidenced by their getting away with crazy stuff that has put down even stronger guys) with just the basics

I made an interesting observation today concerning the lower back topic. I'm currently taking part in a beginner's whitewater kayak course - the sport requires a lot of core activation, and my lower back got sore once again rather quickly, pretty similar to the Russian Twist back soreness (the body position while sitting in the kayak is very similar too). Strangely I more or less just felt this soreness on the left side of my lower back. Any explanations for this?=D I think with the Russian Twists it had been mainly the left side, too.

Are you right handed?  If so the left side may be weeker.

  I thought I would also share this here maybe it will help you:  I have resoved some low back pain that I had been struggeling with over the last three weeks.  I started doing this hamstring stretch a couple times a day.

I was feeling the back pain on the left side of my low back and when I tried to do this stretch it was extreamly tight when stretching the right leg (opposite side of the back pain).  In fact when stretching my right leg I felt allmost all the pull in my back, the left leg felt like a normal hamstring stretch.  When stretching the right leg I took it very slow and held the possition and waited for my back to relax.  Once that happended I could stretch my leg further.  This very quickly resolved my back issue over three or four days and I think I will resume my full training schedule this week.

Yes, I'm right handed, that might be the reason.

For the moment I'll stick to all my GB work and perhaps the issue will resolve this way on its own. I'll also try the stretching exercise you threw in! 

In a different post you talked about a hamstring problem as well. From my own experience, I wonder if your lower back issue is connected to your hamstring (literally and figuratively)? I pulled my hamstring about 1 1/2 years ago, after doing olympic lifting for over 3 years. I bent over with a medicine ball after doing some lifting and I heard it pop. Not a good thing! It has been a very long process to heal it - cleans and snatches were out of the picture except at very light weights for a long time. Squats and deadlifts were ok, as were presses. However, even after a year, the hamstring would still tighten and pull if I carried a load up a hill for example. Intermittently, I also had lower back pain on that side and piriformis issues as well - all on the right side. It wasn't until I started Foundation 1 and the three stretch series several weeks ago, that I confirmed it was all connected. My hip flexors and adductors are extremely tight (I'm older so I have had a lot of time to make that happen, lol). I would say that if you are having issues, work very slowly and really pay attention to which side is tighter than the other, etc. I was surprised that in some areas my right side is more flexible than my left - maybe all along it has been compensating for my lazy left side. My back, piriformis, and 90% of the hamstring issues are now gone. I am very careful to not overdo stretching that hamstring until it is ready, but the mobility parts of F1 and the stretch series have been amazingly helpful and I can feel improvement each time. Good luck!

Thanks for your input Laurie!

The issue I posted in the hamstring injury thread is rather about my adductor I think, and it's rather a matter of poor warm-up and exercise form which lead to a slight strain (at least I hope so). But it might definitely be, that the lower back issue is also connected to hamstring tightness...as you mentioned, I also hope that F1 and the Stretch Series will resolve many of my issues.

At the moment it feels like I'm getting injured extremely quickly and have to be very careful with training, but I guess that's the price for being so inconsistently active for a long time.