RC/PE8

I've never videotaped myself doing pullups, and now i see why i should. I wanted to initial every pull from a complete dead hang, cuz that's how it should be and also i know i don't ever do that before. I usually stop before i reach the dead hang and pull myself back up. Now the dead hang got me pretty good at the 5th rep. I'm not sure i know why that is. I'm new to structured training, will doing scapular raises or single arm scapular raises help the issue, besides keeping doing every pullups properly of course? Row won't help with it, will it? since you never get into a dead hang with rows..   Also, i tried to keep my legs straight (i'm not engaging the quads much in this video but i fixed it later), but my body doesn't look very hollow. Is it also related to the lack of pulling strength (see last rep)?

Appreciate the feedback!

Hi Jin, your form it is completely fine with the common weak point of the pullup: bicep. if in the normal dead hand position you can depress the scapulae for 5 times in a row then you have the scapulae strength for 5 pullup. the reality it is that pullup with GST technique involves the bicep first (until the chin) and then more the lats. in fact why people struggle on the first part? because we are trying to begin the elbow flexion in a point where the bicep it is extremely weak.

Ah, it makes sense. Now I think about it, when I do pull-ups with bent elbows at the bottom, I can do a lot more. With straight arm dead hang, it soon becomes a struggle. So if I train more biceps, my pull-ups will look better?

I don't fully agree with Alessandro here. Depending on your grip, other elbow flexors (e.g. Brachioradialis for pull ups as opposed to chin ups) contribute a lot, so just doing biceps work may not be a solution. In any case your pullups look good enough that I'd think you can just train them and get to mastery that way.

For the scapular depression, doing five reps in a row is not the same demand as five pullups, as you want to maintain the depression during the whole pull.

Speaking of scapular depression, in the video above i have the scapula elevated at the bottom to achieve the dead hang. The video below is my last set, and there was no longer strict dead hang as the shoulders were depressed at the bottom (you can tell by looking at the head position relative to the shoulders). Would it be acceptable? Now i'm thinking about the L sit pullup later in the progression. Every time i tried the L sit pullup (just fooling around), i can't initiate from a dead hang. It seemed impossible to pop my shoulders back into the socket (or something like that) with legs extended out (whyyy?). But with depressed & engaged shoulders it's much easier. I'd like to get more clarification on the shoulder position at the bottom before i move on. Thanks for your help! 

On 10/18/2016 at 3:58 PM, Alessandro Mainente said:

Hi Jin, your form it is completely fine with the common weak point of the pullup: bicep. if in the normal dead hand position you can depress the scapulae for 5 times in a row then you have the scapulae strength for 5 pullup. the reality it is that pullup with GST technique involves the bicep first (until the chin) and then more the lats. in fact why people struggle on the first part? because we are trying to begin the elbow flexion in a point where the bicep it is extremely weak.

So you are saying the pull-up begins with the bicep (elbow flexion) while the scapula is still elevated (dead hang)?

The scapular strength you develop by starting each rep from a dead hang will help you with many things, I'd work towards that. 

As for L-sit pullups, the L-sit shape changes the activation pattern, I believe it requires the lats to do more work for most of the pullup. But for the start, it might be more about the retractor, e.g. rhomboids. Try to actively retract before you try to depress and see if that helps. 

will try that. Thanks @Kai Ewert! Last time I did L sit pullup was way before i started GST. I'm curious to see if all the training i've followed so far actually helps with that. Maybe it doesn't, that means i'll have to train harder. Maybe it does, then that'll make me a very happy person 

4 hours ago, Randall Osborne said:

 

So you are saying the pull-up begins with the bicep (elbow flexion) while the scapula is still elevated (dead hang)?

Nope, scapular depression it is achived prior to elbow flexion and with arm completely straight.

2 hours ago, Kai Ewert said:

The scapular strength you develop by starting each rep from a dead hang will help you with many things, I'd work towards that. 

As for L-sit pullups, the L-sit shape changes the activation pattern, I believe it requires the lats to do more work for most of the pullup. But for the start, it might be more about the retractor, e.g. rhomboids. Try to actively retract before you try to depress and see if that helps. 

We do not suggest retraction on pullup. retraction and depression creates the typical body inclination due to to the arc that we are creating in the thoracic spine. this will modify the body trajectory shifting the work more over the lats while the primarily goal must be the biceps conditioning.

21 hours ago, Kai Ewert said:

I don't fully agree with Alessandro here. Depending on your grip, other elbow flexors (e.g. Brachioradialis for pull ups as opposed to chin ups) contribute a lot, so just doing biceps work may not be a solution. In any case your pullups look good enough that I'd think you can just train them and get to mastery that way.

For the scapular depression, doing five reps in a row is not the same demand as five pullups, as you want to maintain the depression during the whole pull.

the beginning movement present 2 factors:

-accessories elbow flexors present a situation of higher advantageous leverage compared to the bicep which shows the most of the strength at 90° of elbow flexion.

-accessories muscles should have been already prepared with the previous rows mastery, so i suppose that they are not the weak point. if they are, please show me th emastery of the previous exercise.

I did it! Just tried and did several L sit pull up from a complete dead hang. I'm happy. Definitely feel I had to squeeze the middle of the back more, way more. Biceps and elbows also play a key role in the initiation. I did it fresh so they weren't failing yet, but I can tell they will be the first to fail. I'm gonna fix them 

Congratulations Jin! That's awesome!

Thanks! Can't resist to attempt a few times to really feel it. And I think this video exposes my weakness pretty obviously 

Nice shapes there  well done 

On 20/10/2016 at 9:01 PM, Alessandro Mainente said:

Nope, scapular depression it is achived prior to elbow flexion and with arm completely straight.

Team,

I'm just about to start RC/PE8 and I was a little confused by this and the rest of the conversation above which seemed in conflict.  So am I right in saying that to initiate the pull up using perfect form I should:

• Start in a complete dead hand (with scapular elevated and elbows locked out)
• Depress scapular but not retract (with elbows still locked out)
• Begin pulling and flex at the elbows (i.e. stressing biceps)
• Maintain a straight vertical trajectory (but move to miss the bar) without retracting scaps (as this would arch my back)

If this isn't correct could a coach write out in full the order that should occur to be completely explicit?

Stu

The above procedure it is correct. instead of taling about vertical trajecotry I prefer to say that one must be move under the bar and pass it before touching it.

I've been focusing on the straight arm dead hang full ROM for every single pull up. Still need more endurance, but I think the form is improving (at least the dead hang part). However, i'm not very clear about the shoulder retraction and back arching part. Looking at my own videos, i think i'm making the mistake? I tried to do the vertical trajectory as @Alessandro Mainente mentioned (see the first video. Yes that was the last set of this last exercise of the day, and i was pretty beat up there). But my elbows seem to flare out (see the gap between the bar I use, i can literally come through the bar). So today I want to keep the elbows in and still be as vertical as possible (see second video), how did I do there? In order to bring the elbows in, I feel I have to bring them a bit in front of me, right? Then my body will get behind them and behind the bar. Does that make my back arch? 

For me, the second video is better. The first is similar to a Bulgarian pull up with elbows coming to the side. I am interested to know the official verdict. 

I suppose you lose a little bit of hollow to get around the bar which could be worked on? To me they look like lovely pullups though

Max

Second form it is correct.

What muscle fatigue/compensation is responsible for this crappy form? It's very pronounced when i'm tired. Can any one explain the mechanics to me? Thx!

@Jin Liu I'm on 4x5 of this and in my last set I get the same. Sets 1-3 I am vertical when I pull. Set 4 I initiate the pull and the first thing that happens is my chest turns into a table then I start to move up towards the bar.

I too would be interested to hear why.

It seems to me that the reason could be as simple as losing core engagement as you fatigue. I just tried a couple pullups, one where I deliberately disengaged my core and one where I kept it tight, and that gave me a pullup as in the fatigued video in the first try and a "clean" one in the second...

Hi Jin if you notice your body is triyng to generate a compensation strategy in order to make the ascent part easier. specifically when you begin the rep you tend to arch the upper back. this fact moves the sternum higher and your tend to pull down the elbows and lift the body by using the lats wich are very strong. on the contrary if you hold a tight hollowed position you cannot arch and th only muscles which promote the lift are the biceps. so basically your form it saying "not enough biceps strenght".

Thanks for your reply, @Kai Ewert and @Alessandro Mainente! I can imagine that losing core control can cause a loose lower body, but I felt it was more like something is failing in the upper back or shoulders or arms (I couldn't tell which) that cause the chest to rise up first, like @Stuart McFarlane described. And I can see that it's because the lats are trying to compensate at the initiation. When should lats be involved (as ppl always say pull up is an upper back exercise)? Is it towards the end of the pull to close the distance between the upper arms and body when the elbows are passed 90 degrees? But at the initiation of the pull (esp. from straight arm to bent arm) is mostly biceps? So if I don't allow the lats to compensate at the initiation and fail to pull up, I fail the set then...