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Started by Razz, December 15, 2009 · 24 Replies · 14,766 Views
Hi guys
After reading this article:
by Charles Poliquin on planned overtraining, I was interested to see what opinions people here have on doing this with a gymnastics type program. Earlier I had thought this type of training was more hypertrophy related, but seems that according to Charles it can give great strength gains aswell. Obviously for competitive gymnasts this is a no-no unless they cut out all technical elements, but for strength training what are opinions on this?
1) Lose strength2) Lose muscle
3) Be chronically overtrained
4) Experience aching tendons and joints
5) Be brutally sore (and train right through it)
6) Be mentally depressed
7) Feel like killing yourself or others
Dude, I think that says it all. . .
Well all that is the whole point of the planned overtraining... to supercompensate afterwards, same principals as the Sheiko weight lifting program. Therefore i'm wondering for peoples opinions on this, maybe some people have even tried it.
This is simply an extreme measure to 'ride the supercompensation wave' when it becomes difficult to supercompensate with your normal work load. (Plateu)
Combined with good rest and some regeneration techniques this can produce great resutls. I have done this many times with myself and clients. But, the risk is that the recovery phase will have to be so long, (when the person is being pushed into overtraining too strong for his own work capacity) that by the time he recuperates, the supercompensation curve peak is long gone.
Of course, with beginners and unexperienced trainees this can be a dangerous habit that may lead to injury.
Ido.
I have trained in similar fashion to this in the past (maybe not quite so extreme that i felt like killing myself or others) and i did notice increased strength after a recovery period; however, i don't think it's worth it with gymnastics training unless you have explored all other ways to break through your plateau.
I don't know how he arrived at 20%. Seems kind of arbitrary.
Also, this probably only applies to movements that involves the CNS to a heavy extent. I'm uneducated in the specific movements, but dips shouldn't compare to overhead pressed, IMO.
If his 20% is accurate, it would be far easier to drop 20% in reps rather than weight. However his method allows for more volume as well as TUT.
I've always wondered how long it would take to replenish my glycometric (sp?) stores compared to my CNS.
Thank you Ido, those were the same lines I had been thinking along but it's always nice to have it confirmed by an expert.
Tsoonami, I agree with what you say aswell, this is sort of a last resort to break a plateau 
If you read the whole article, it's clearly written for people who use testosterone boosting "supplements" lol! There's a reason they are pushing so hard. I have done this drug and supplement free on my own on the ship, I'd do 5-6 days straight of training every day, pretty much full body, as hard as I could, and then not do more than one rep of anything with more than 80% or so of my max for, well, until I felt full of energy again. Usually took 4-6 days. I didn't do it all the time, just when it felt right. It definitely helped me shoot past my plateaus, but to do what this article suggests without serious supplementation is retarded. It will screw you up like Ido said, take you too far into over-training. I got to the size and strength I have now without that testosterone supplementation, as did many (if not all) of us here,and I can guarantee you that you can do it too!
• Don't take Testosterone boosting supplements during the loading weeks. You want to train to the point of depressed Testosterone! Save the T-boosters for the five day off period.• Double-dose Alpha Male during this off period. By your third off day, you'll be hornier than a three-balled billy goat because your Testosterone levels will be shooting through the ceiling.
Two quotes for those of you who think a natural guy will be able to handle that exact routine. The idea is great, and works fantastically well, but if you're all natural you better learn your limits
T-boosters (tribulus) are completely legal and people using them are still considered natural.
Yeah he is not talking about drug testosterone boosters These are supplements that naturally raises testosterone levels, however if your testosterone levels are normal they probably won't do much, which is why i'm guessing they are good to use in the recovery week.
I found myself in a cumulative fatigue state for pistol squats. I took a week off, and came back feeling no better. So, I relaxed for a few more days, and came back weaker. I had read after that, some said the nervous system can take more than a week to fully recover. All of this was by accident. I was basically trying to push beyond my past weekly volume total for 5 days (m>f, then the weeken off), because I was plateauing. After 3-4 weeks I wasn't recovering, so I rested. From that experience, it is hard to convince me that doing nothing is ALWAYS wise. You should likely do something, even if very little in volume and intensity, to try and not lose the super compensation effect. Based on what I know, this might be a better plan for hypertrophy than neurological strength gain, which has put me under the impression that muscle is the most resistant to change either way between the two, so you can get away with slightly longer layoffs, and even benefit from it.
ed x said:T-boosters (tribulus) are completely legal and people using them are still considered natural.
I want you guys to trust me on something. If you are taking testosterone enhancement substances, you are not natural. I don't care what's accepted and what's not. The ONLY difference between most of those products and illegal steroids are chemical chain additives on the steroidal structure. They are reformulated to get through a loophole. They BECOME STEROIDS in the body. Well, that's what all prohormones and comparable supplements do. Go check it out yourself. They are DESIGNER STEROIDS. I'm not knocking them, and I don't use them, but they are what they are. Go look at the active substance in tribulus: ITS A DAMN STEROIDAL SAPONIN! Jesus. The only difference is that one gets you jail time and one is a few steps ahead of the law.
The original steroids came from chemically adding molecular chains to a substance found in yams. By that logic, they too are natural.
And those "natural" and "herbal" supplements can cause the same hormonal problems as illegal steroids. I've seen it. Don't think that they are any different. Whether you build a house with bricks or sticks, a house is a house. The concept and the implications are the same.
And if you think that the world champion weight lifters are not drugging to some degree, you're completely nuts. There's a reason why there are "natural only" leagues, and that's because the natural athletes CAN NOT COMPETE WITH DRUGGERS. Just because a drug can be legally purchased doesn't make it less of a drug. In fact, just so everyone realizes it, the definition of drug by the FDA is so broad that it can include just about anything. They even reclassified germanium a drug when it was discovered that high doses had a noticeable effect.
So if you think you are natural just because what you take is legal, your head is so far up your ass that you probably eat shit for breakfast. You are legal, but not natural.
Now, whether or not these are ethical is a completely different discussion. it is important that if people use these they have the proper mindset. If you use those things you better have aromatase inhibitors and if you're using something strong you better get SERMS. If you don't know what those things are you're taking a huge risk of unwanted side effects and ineffective training. And you better not tell anyone you're "natural." That would be a flat out lie and mislead people into expecting unrealistic results.
I will now provide you with the claims of the company who makes "Alpha Male" for those of you who think he isn't promoting a drug. You better get a diaper, you're going to shit yourself.
No matter how you achieved your gains over the years – whether you've used anabolic steroids, pro-steroids, prohormones, or remained clean – it's those periods when your anabolic physiology was a step beyond natural that you began to see a shift toward muscular leanness.
Not 2 or 3 Steps . . .
But Only 1 Step Above Natural
It's not when you're bulking up with mega doses of anabolic agents that you develop that refined, angular look that everyone wants but almost no one can achieve. It's only when you're one step above your natural anabolic state that you really refine your physique.
A Better Anavar
Anavar (oxandrolone) is one of the best steroids for bridging. It can't aromatize or reduce. It's highly anabolic with low androgenicity. It's only mildly suppressive and rates minimal for liver toxicity.
Bottom line, in a head-to-head comparison to Anavar the new compound equals the lean mass gains and exceeds the body-fat losses!
... skip one paragraph of advertising...
We've developed a better anabolic compound than Anavar! Better in the sense that it's equal in anabolic horsepower, but it's actually more effective at stripping off body fat – and it doesn't have to be cycled! It will not down-regulate your endocrine system and it won't lose its effectiveness over time.
So, now you can bridge fulltime!
Carbolin 19
The Ultimate Anabolic Bridge
The name of the novel anabolic compound is Carbolin 19. The actual chemical name is colforsin 1,9-ethylcarbonate. Carbolin 19 is a carbonate ester of a naturally occurring diterpene called colforsin (aka, forskolin). Don't even begin to confuse this material with an herbal extract of Coleus forskohlii! We're using a carbonate ester of pure colforsin, which means it's a highly pure, single compound.
We spent the last year extracting and purifying colforsin to pharmaceutical-grade standards and further refining it into a carbonate ester. This reaction extended the duration of action from four hours to 12 hours. The carbonate gave us an increase in bioavailability as well, but it wasn't enough. So, we incorporated the compound into our Nano-Dispersed Gel, which improved bioavailability to the point of being drug-like.
They themselves claim that this, only ONE of the THREE ingredients of "Alpha Male," in the same dosage recommended on the bottle. Better than an illegal steroid, they claim, with university studies to back it up.
So please, someone be stupid enough to tell me that this is natural. AND POLIQUIN RECOMMENDS A DOUBLE DOSE. So someone, PLEASE, be stupid and ignorant enough to claim his methods are natural in any way shape or form. They are drugger methods.
There's nothing inherently wrong with that to my mind, but it is what it is. Do not, for one second, think Poliquin is recommending anything that is even remotely close to natural. That doesn't make it bad, but it does make you ignorant as hell if you think it's natural.
slizzardman said:ed x said:T-boosters (tribulus) are completely legal and people using them are still considered natural.I want you guys to trust me on something. If you are taking testosterone enhancement substances, you are not natural. I don't care what's accepted and what's not. The ONLY difference between most of those products and illegal steroids are chemical chain additives on the steroidal structure. They are reformulated to get through a loophole. They BECOME STEROIDS in the body. Well, that's what all prohormones and comparable supplements do. Go check it out yourself. They are DESIGNER STEROIDS. I'm not knocking them, and I don't use them, but they are what they are. Go look at the active substance in tribulus: ITS A DAMN STEROIDAL SAPONIN! Jesus. The only difference is that one gets you jail time and one is a few steps ahead of the law.
The original steroids came from chemically adding molecular chains to a substance found in yams. By that logic, they too are natural.
And those "natural" and "herbal" supplements can cause the same hormonal problems as illegal steroids. I've seen it. Don't think that they are any different. Whether you build a house with bricks or sticks, a house is a house. The concept and the implications are the same.
And if you think that the world champion weight lifters are not drugging to some degree, you're completely nuts. There's a reason why there are "natural only" leagues, and that's because the natural athletes CAN NOT COMPETE WITH DRUGGERS. Just because a drug can be legally purchased doesn't make it less of a drug. In fact, just so everyone realizes it, the definition of drug by the FDA is so broad that it can include just about anything. They even reclassified germanium a drug when it was discovered that high doses had a noticeable effect.
So if you think you are natural just because what you take is legal, your head is so far up your ass that you probably eat shit for breakfast. You are legal, but not natural.
Now, whether or not these are ethical is a completely different discussion. it is important that if people use these they have the proper mindset. If you use those things you better have aromatase inhibitors and if you're using something strong you better get SERMS. If you don't know what those things are you're taking a huge risk of unwanted side effects and ineffective training. And you better not tell anyone you're "natural." That would be a flat out lie and mislead people into expecting unrealistic results.
*************a nother "good one" i completely agree.
Brandon Green
Well now I'm a Danish person and what's legal in the States may not be natural, but what's legal in Denmark I'm pretty sure is natural. That is why I said what I did because I had no idea that unnatural products like that could be legal. Gotta say thanks for the heads up though, I'm kinda shocked right now. I still believe the testosterone boosters legal in Denmark are natural, that's probably also the reason why they dont work for shit and the reason I'd never spend my money on it.
I agree with Razz.
What's legal in USA is not necessary legal in EU. In USA you can get testorone or Hgh under doctors control for life extension stuffs, here NOT. In USA prohormones are legal here NOT.
I treat not natural what is on doping list (ok am not talking about designer steroids which are not yet on doping list and so on). T-booster is natural booster to certan limit (very low increase 100x less than minimal doses, and is up to natural max and not more). Tribulis testeris and fenugreek are such plants and they are not on a doping list, due the fact it's very limited increase and some study even shows that doesn't help (some does).
Razz said:Well now I'm a Danish person and what's legal in the States may not be natural, but what's legal in Denmark I'm pretty sure is natural. That is why I said what I did because I had no idea that unnatural products like that could be legal. Gotta say thanks for the heads up though, I'm kinda shocked right now. I still believe the testosterone boosters legal in Denmark are natural, that's probably also the reason why they dont work for shit and the reason I'd never spend my money on it.
It's true that the tribullus stuff, fenugreek, etc. all that by itself really doesn't do squat. I can guarantee that. I've tried that stuff before and it was a waste. The sad part is that you can still get breast tissue growth and testosterone shutdown with it if you use it too long or dose too high. It does effect increases in testosterone enough to give negative side effects, but not enough to give meaningful training results. It's not worth the money. You could spend the same or less for a cycle of steroids with SERMS if you buy from the right people, and actually get results. I'm not endorsing or railing against that. I believe in freedom of information. In my opinion people should have the right to make their own decisions regarding this. I am walking proof that you don't need to, as are a number of forum members.
One interesting thing that DOES work, but is really tedious, is to take small doses of whey protein every 20-30 minutes. 4-5 grams is plenty. You'll grow muscle like it's a weed in a sunny garden. I did this and put on muscle and strength much faster than normal. But that's much easier to do on the ship, where everything is a few flights of stairs away.
I still believe the testosterone boosters legal in Denmark are natural, that's probably also the reason why they dont work for shit
I don't care if it works, if its legal or considered natural. It is cheating. Train hard and smart and have plenty of good food. Reaching your goals with anything else is nothing to be proud of.
I dunno, no matter what you take or don't take, the core component is hard work and consistency. There are levels of performance that can't be obtained without pharmaceuticals. It's just a question of whether or not that's what you want, and whether it is worth the money, possible side effects, and professional consequences.
Having said that, the strongest men to ever walk the planet lived before steroids existed, so I'm fairly sure that we can all attain phenomenal performance without the drugs.
It's only cheating if it's against the rules. Have drug free and drug allowed competitions. See which ones consumers prefer. Would people tune into pro-drug olympics over drug-free olympics?
That's how bodybuilding is.
slizzardman said:Razz said:Well now I'm a Danish person and what's legal in the States may not be natural, but what's legal in Denmark I'm pretty sure is natural. That is why I said what I did because I had no idea that unnatural products like that could be legal. Gotta say thanks for the heads up though, I'm kinda shocked right now. I still believe the testosterone boosters legal in Denmark are natural, that's probably also the reason why they dont work for shit and the reason I'd never spend my money on it.It's true that the tribullus stuff, fenugreek, etc. all that by itself really doesn't do squat. I can guarantee that. I've tried that stuff before and it was a waste. The sad part is that you can still get breast tissue growth and testosterone shutdown with it if you use it too long or dose too high. It does effect increases in testosterone enough to give negative side effects, but not enough to give meaningful training results. It's not worth the money. You could spend the same or less for a cycle of steroids with SERMS if you buy from the right people, and actually get results. I'm not endorsing or railing against that. I believe in freedom of information. In my opinion people should have the right to make their own decisions regarding this. I am walking proof that you don't need to, as are a number of forum members.
One interesting thing that DOES work, but is really tedious, is to take small doses of whey protein every 20-30 minutes. 4-5 grams is plenty. You'll grow muscle like it's a weed in a sunny garden. I did this and put on muscle and strength much faster than normal. But that's much easier to do on the ship, where everything is a few flights of stairs away.
************* Where did you learn that one from(Whey powder)?
BTW the Bulgarians suppossedly had a trib substance that increased test by 30 %! Probably had an anti aromatse with it.
Brandon Green
That's a small increase, won't even take you out of the "normal range" in a lab test. Real steroids kick you up well over 200-300%, minimum. It's bananas. They also have chemical side chains that do other things, and I don't really know too much about the pharmacological details, I just know that it is so. 
Never been interested, or had a client interested enough, to learn about stuff like that. I definitely believe in freedom of knowledge, it's ridiculous to restrict information... especially when that information can help people make safer choices when they decide to do something like take steroids, which I think is unnecessary in most cases.
I learned about the whey powder from a bottle of Designer Whey time released protein. They referenced a study and I actually spent 4 and a half hours on the computer in my ship's library (a serious stretch on both words) searching online, and I found and read the research paper. I tried it out and sure as shit, you can FEEL the difference! It's nuts. Very tedious, to be sure, but you can actually feel your body heal.
One interesting thing that DOES work, but is really tedious, is to take small doses of whey protein every 20-30 minutes. 4-5 grams is plenty. You'll grow muscle like it's a weed in a sunny garden. I did this and put on muscle and strength much faster than normal.
I tried this a couple of times at the end of the day. 4 x 100ml of milk with some protein powder and a 1/4 banana every 25 minutes. In the past few weeks I grew stronger, bigger and leaner but I'm not sure which component (small protein dosis, fish-oil, rape-oil, generally good nutrtion or workout routine) is paying off..
Do you have to do this all day long to see optimal results?
Your consistency with the protein was the biggest factor. Having carbs with it is smart.
You will get better results by far when you do it all day, but you practically have to have a timer. I used to walk around my ship with an old vitamin bottle full of protein and get a small mouthful and swish it with water a few times an hour. It's pretty insane, how well it works. The more consistently you do it throughout the day the better the results will be.