Post workout meal

Blairbob said:

Life gets boring on the ship, and I do LOVE cookie dough!

Hah. Mmmm. However, this solidifies in my mind that you are a grade-C nutball somewhat. It's ok, I like cookie dough too.

Anyways, in the military, quite often there is the eat everything you see diet and still lose weight because of how many calories you are expending. You only get 3 meals, so eat up.

HAHAHA, only grade C? I guess I've calmed down in my old age.

I was buddies with all the cooks, so I got to eat whenever I wanted I also frequently walked out with a pocket full of apples and another pocket full of chicken wings or steak when available, and ate every other hour or so I remember some of the chiefs gave me a hard time about it until I reminded them that what I eat leaves no trash. I eat the apple core and everything. CHicken bones go over the side and eaten by fishies. And then I asked them if they wanted to create an issue where I am being discriminated against because I am eating healthy snacks instead of junk food. Then they were like... huh. And that was that I learned that hot wings melt the paint right off your fingers!

Ido: I have to agree that my results are not necessarily the best I could have achieved. I did manage to train around 25 of my shipmates and they all got pretty good results for as long as they trained and ate, but I can certainly not assume that we got optimal results. It's probably true that we could have done better if we had more nutritional options. I probably do have some genetic factors working in my favor When I last went off of the milk, the rest of my diet probably wasn't optimized, so I have to assume that may have influenced my lack of response one way or the other. I have definitely noticed an improvement since I stopped eating noodles and replaced them with sweet potatoes and cinnamon about a week ago. I mostly wanted to point out that even with the diet I had, it is possible to achieve an extremely high level of fitness in multiple areas, as I managed to achieve for not only myself but my shipmates and later my friends here at home. But you're right to point out that there are probably better modes of nutrition that could take one even further. I am, though it was tough initially, opening my mind and changing my diet according to what I am learning from you, Jason, and the reading recommendations I have seen posted here. And I have to say that so far, so good Pasta is definitely not the best source of carbs

I know there was another post here in this thread about it, but I'd like to ask as well. What is your take on whey protein supplements? Are they allergenic as well, or is it other factors in milk that are troublesome? I noticed that Robb Wolf seems to recommend the use of whey, and I am wondering what your take on that is.

Friends,

If people have the time and inclination, Robb Wolf's latest podcast discusses milk and dairy and its uses and contraindications.

http://robbwolf.com/

best,

jason

It's only about 15 minutes long, the dairy part. It's good to listen to.

The breakdown is this: Milk makes you grow like no other food product. It increases hormonal release across the board. That includes insulin, which of course increases milk's ability to shuttle nutrients into the cells. Unfortunately, using milk all the time can lead to unnecessary fat gain and increased insulin resistance. Additionally, it appears that when trying to bulk, it is better to get lean(10% BF or below) first because when you are eating and using milk(or not, but this is about milk) to grow, a higher percentage of the calories will be used for muscle building, so you literally build more muscle when you are lean than when you are not. The allergenic response is covered, and it is recommended that anyone with an autoimmune condition should stay away from dairy and grains. Milk is by far the best thing to use in concert with whatever else you eat post workout, especially if you are intentionally trying to gain muscle mass, but use it wisely. If you're not lean you should lean out first before "bulking", and if you aren't specifically trying to grow bigger muscles then milk isn't necessarily something you want in your diet, as it does have allergenic issues and does tend to promote fat accumulation beyond what is absolutely necessary. It won't make you a fatass, but it will increase the likelihood that your fat levels will be slightly higher than they would be without the milk. This goes for goat milk as well as regular grocery store milk and grass-fed milk.

So, if you want to get bigger muscles specifically, first get down to 10% or less BF and then use the milk post workout with your shake or food or whatever you do, and when you get the muscular size you are looking for, lay off the milk. You'll keep the muscle and slowly lose what little fat you have accumulated. That's it. If you aren't intentionally trying to grow (or have no need of muscular growth), milk really doesn't need to have a place in your diet. If you ARE trying to grow, you will do better with milk, but the autoimmune warning still applies.

Reading this is faster than listening to the podcast, but I'd listen to the podcast. He talks about more things, goes into a bit more detail, and it's quite informative.

http://robbwolf.com/?p=634

Robb's thoughts on PWO meals since we are talking about PWO meals.

slizzardman said:

.....If you aren't intentionally trying to grow (or have no need of muscular growth), milk really doesn't need to have a place in your diet....

Oh yeah??? Well then what in the world am I supposed to put on my bowl of Captain Crunch in the morning? Eh? Tell me that..... :?

Robb Wolf also discusses milk at length in his podcast today.

Whey is a completely different animal. Highly less allergenic and problematic and has a lot of health benefits.

Ido.

jl5555 said:

slizzardman said:

.....If you aren't intentionally trying to grow (or have no need of muscular growth), milk really doesn't need to have a place in your diet....

Oh yeah??? Well then what in the world am I supposed to put on my bowl of Captain Crunch in the morning? Eh? Tell me that..... :?

HAHAHAHAHA you gotta take that one up with the big dawgs of nutrition! Of course they'll tell you you don't need the Cap'n, but I don't see THEM riding on a pirate ship!?!?!

Mclbc8nSww4

This is how I know there is a God. *laughs his way to the grocery store*

jl5555 said:

slizzardman said:

.....If you aren't intentionally trying to grow (or have no need of muscular growth), milk really doesn't need to have a place in your diet....

Oh yeah??? Well then what in the world am I supposed to put on my bowl of Captain Crunch in the morning? Eh? Tell me that..... :?

JL,

You could try a can of coconut milk. Of course, you should be pouring it on chicken breast, ground beef, or other hunk of protein.

jason

I'm inspired now to experiment without dairy products and see how I feel. As my BF % stays under 10 and normally around 7-8 I'm interested to see how it affects me.

I'll report back on how I feel without dairy in a week or so.

My take from the conversation here re dairy and the podcast is that I may try to find some grass-fed whole milk.

I'm going 2 weeks without dairy aswell will update feeling about it in my log

Whey is a completely different animal. Highly less allergenic and problematic and has a lot of health benefits.

Many people are allergic to casein.

slizzardman said:

Lol, no. Vitargo is a special type of waxy maize starch. It's super dense, so it sinks to the bottom of the stomach and enters the blood stream faster than any other source of carbohydrates. It is unbelievable. When you pour the scoop into the water, if you do it at a reasonable pace you can watch it fall through the water about as fast as a rock does. Vitargo is no joke.

Vitargo sounds very interesting... are there any bad side-effects or stuff like that, or is the only drawback its price?

Vitargo is expensive and if you are not pro or cyclist you won't notice any diffrence between maltodoxtrose or just dextrose and vitargo.

Whey is a completely different animal. Highly less allergenic and problematic and has a lot of health benefits.

Many people are allergic to casein.

Blairbob, I dont know what you mean with this comment. Whey and Casein are two different things, maybe you are unaware of that.

Ido.

Out of interest what does everyone think about post workout carbs along with protein? Is it an indivdual thing? I know Poliquin has written about the relationship between volume of work and carbs but I have also read an article by Mauro Di Pasquale that is very interesting regarding the possibility that PWO carbs are counter-productive. I know for instance obese and fat people should have glutamine instead of fast acting carbs so as not to provoke an insulin response so it is why i think it may be an individual thing.

Has anyone read any good books on the subject? I can't find anything decent with a quick search. "Optimum sports nutrition" by Michael Colgan is supposed to be quite good but old!

Here is the Mauro article if anyone is interested: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/md92.htm

Thanks

Blairbob said:

http://robbwolf.com/?p=634

Robb's thoughts on PWO meals since we are talking about PWO meals.

Hey Rob,

I don't know if you saw this or not; it's pretty helpful, even from a non-Paleo point of view.

My understanding is that if you're looking to lean out, i.e. drop below 10% BF, it's a better idea to dispense PWO carbs altogether.

If you're already lean, you can monkey with PWO carbs depending on the extent and severity of the beating you received from your workout.

best,

jason

gymrob said:

Out of interest what does everyone think about post workout carbs along with protein? Is it an indivdual thing? I know Poliquin has written about the relationship between volume of work and carbs but I have also read an article by Mauro Di Pasquale that is very interesting regarding the possibility that PWO carbs are counter-productive. I know for instance obese and fat people should have glutamine instead of fast acting carbs so as not to provoke an insulin response so it is why i think it may be an individual thing.

Has anyone read any good books on the subject? I can't find anything decent with a quick search. "Optimum sports nutrition" by Michael Colgan is supposed to be quite good but old!

Here is the Mauro article if anyone is interested: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/md92.htm

Thanks

You shouldn't consider the special conditions that apply to obese individuals unless you yourself are obese. Even then, you need to understand why those conditions apply. Obese people are going to store a larger percentage of calories in fat than a lean person because of hormonal differences. Obese people are not as sensitive to insulin, which means their bodies have to produce more to get a nutrient shuttling effect. Unfortunately, those high levels of insulin increase the amount of nutrients that bet stored in fat. In that situation, where it is more important for that obese person to become lean than it is for them to have the maximum anabolic response after a workout, PWO carbohydrates will work against the primary goal of becoming lean. That does NOT mean that PWO carbohydrates are a bad idea, it means that a fat or obese individual needs to become lean before they worry about maximizing muscle gains. They will still gain or at the least maintain if their nutrition and training is programmed right, just not at the optimal level, because the nutrition required for that will keep them from leaning out, which should be the primary goal of an obese individual.

So, if you are relatively lean, you should absolutely be taking carbs with your PWO protein, because that will maximize your gains from the training you do. If you are fat (above 15% or so for men) you should be more careful about your PWO carbs and make sure you aren't gaining body fat. If you are, or if you aren't dropping, if the rest of your diet is clean then it might benefit you to further reduce or even eliminate PWO carbs until you achieve a lower body fat percentage. If you are ok with your bodyfat % then tweak your PWO so that you don't gain. If you are obese(over 20% for men) you should probably cut them out entirely.

The ideal scenario is that you get yourself in the 10% or less range first, and then make gaining muscle mass your primary objective since you will be gaining more muscle as a lean man than you will as a fat man, due to the difference in hormonal balance caused by higher body fat levels. Not everyone is interested in the ideal, so practically speaking while you SHOULD follow the ideal scenario, as long as you keep your body fat at 15% or below with a relatively clean diet you won't have any elevated health risks, and you shouldn't have a hard time maintaining or slowly losing body fat.

And, as jason said, you always need to modulate your carbs based on how much work you do in your training session. That part is trial and error, and will vary from person to person. If you train really hard, you're going to need 50-80g of clean carbs, depending on your size and HOW much you kicked your own ass, PWO. If you're in there for 30 minutes and work up a little sweat but you haven't had to sit down and breathe to avoid slight nausea/dizziness and possible puking, you probably aren't working your hardest, and won't need as much. In that respect the AMOUNT of PWO carbs is very individual, but to maximize performance they will almost always have their place in PWO meals, because if you want to perform well you're going to have to train freaking HARD. That may not apply to skills training, as the body's system is not necessarily being pushed as hard, it really depends. Learn to know your body.

A basic guideline is this: If your sets go for more than 20 seconds, you're starting to burn significant amounts of glycogen, and will probably need at least some PWO carbs to replenish it.

I have personally found that once I get 1/3 to 1/2 way through my workout, one or two "jelly belly" or store brand equivalent jellybeans between sets reduces my need for PWO carbs and extends the amount of time I can exert maximum effort, enabling me to get more out of my workouts. I don't know what the experts think about that sort of thing, but it works well during tough training sessions. I don't do that on my easy workouts.

another quick question: is it realiable to measure fat percentage using this scale??: http://www.wholesalepoint.com/pc-Tanita ... BC554.html

aoa said:

another quick question: is it realiable to measure fat percentage using this scale??: http://www.wholesalepoint.com/pc-Tanita ... BC554.html

no... tanita is the worst form of bia

Whey is a completely different animal. Highly less allergenic and problematic and has a lot of health benefits.

My response(Blairbob) Many people are allergic to casein.

Blairbob, I dont know what you mean with this comment. Whey and Casein are two different things, maybe you are unaware of that.

Ido.

I meant that because many people are allergic to casein is why milk can be so allergenic. Thus, whey is less problematic.

From what I've heard casein allergies are bad news. I do know that Whey and Casein are two different types of proteins.

even whey protein has its critics... there is being research done investigating an isomer of whey folding in a protic solvent and having detrimental effects on the body...

i think nutrition can be terribly depressing... i keep hearing is how bad things are to eat... by the time i get to the grocery store i'm afraid to buy food because its going to kill me... it ridiculous...

griffdrc said:

..... i keep hearing is how bad things are to eat... by the time i get to the grocery store i'm afraid to buy food because its going to kill me... it ridiculous...

Yeah, it's crazy. That's why I just let Ronald (McDonald), the (Burger) King, and Jack (in the Box) cook for me. It takes out so much of the worry.

jl5555 said:

griffdrc said:

..... i keep hearing is how bad things are to eat... by the time i get to the grocery store i'm afraid to buy food because its going to kill me... it ridiculous...

I hear you. I had a great grandma who did everything wrong and ate a pound of butter every day. She made it to 101 before any health problems. This obviously proves nothing, but it is interesting how some people seem to thrive on the "wrong diet". Would she have made it to 120 if she hadn't consumed dairy...doubtful, but you never know? I tend to believe that every person is unique not only in personality and looks, but also in how foods affect them. The best thing to do is be conscientious of how you personally respond to foods and try changes if needed. I recommend everyone to go get a food allergy test from bloodwork. I had stomach problems for most of my life, took a food allergy test, found what I was allergic to, cut it out of my diet for a year and all my problems disappeared. Even food allergies are sometimes a result of over consumption, so by taking those foods out of your diet and then slowly reintroducing them, you may find that you are no longer affected or allergic to those substances. After a year away from the foods I was allergic to, I was able to reintroduce them without any problems!! This all reminds me...I should go get another test done...best money I ever spent!!