Started by Ido Portal, November 22, 2009 · 27 Replies · 14,894 Views
http://www.ppcchicago.com/articles/poliquin-on-swimming.php
Charles Poliquin recommending the muscle up as a great exercise for swimmers, due to the combined push / pull function.
This is an old article, but I thought maybe some of you have not seen it yet,
enjoy,
Ido.
I used to condition a competitive swim team and worked negative muscle ups with them, they loved the increase in applicable strength.
Of all the common strength moves, I think that is the most transferable. Problem is, even the 50m freestyle is not taking less than 24 strokes (and that is practice laps cadence). All out is rarely ever under 32 strokes, and upwards of low 40's. I wonder if there would be any significant transfer to anything over 100m. I doubt it from the look of the swimmers in the 200 on up. Also, I believe Poliquin is wrong when he says women are built better for swimming. Men are taller, and a longer boat overcomes the resistance of the water easier, think sculling shells. Combine that with superior strength, and it is really bad match up. About Poliquin calling himself a boat anchor, he simply does not know how to use his body. You lungs are your flotation device, and your kick keeps you level. Most people have a crappy kick.
great prediction about no one matching Spitz 
JL said:Of all the common strength moves, I think that is the most transferable. Problem is, even the 50m freestyle is not taking less than 24 strokes (and that is practice laps cadence). All out is rarely ever under 32 strokes, and upwards of low 40's. I wonder if there would be any significant transfer to anything over 100m. I doubt it from the look of the swimmers in the 200 on up. Also, I believe Poliquin is wrong when he says women are built better for swimming. Men are taller, and a longer boat overcomes the resistance of the water easier, think sculling shells. Combine that with superior strength, and it is really bad match up. About Poliquin calling himself a boat anchor, he simply does not know how to use his body. You lungs are your flotation device, and your kick keeps you level. Most people have a crappy kick.
As a big guy, I think you are slightly wrong about your opinion as far as Poliquin not knowing how to use his body. He may not, and you might be right about that, but I do and I stay straight, but I go down FAST. I can take a full breath, to the point where my lungs hurt, and walk on the bottom of the pool. This made certain parts of drownproofing very easy for me at BUDS, and other parts, specifically the damn float, extremely difficult.
I think Poliquin is referring to a higher bodyfat percentage by gender as his basis for saying women are "built for swimming" but that's more than off-set, at least in shorter distances, by the fact that bodily protrusions like hips and breasts create drag points that cause an eddy behind them, slowing the swimmer. Men are more streamlined as a general rule than women and create less drag. That's why competitive womens suits, the good ones anyways, have inserts to go under the breasts so that there is a smooth contour. And extreme compression, to even out the body's curves. So it really depends on how you define "build for swimming.
As for sculling shells, a longer boat goes straighter, but more surface contact with water pretty much always equals more drag, so the length is useful in the sense that it does not change direction as easily, and helps reduce the depth of the boat, creating a straighter line with less water to resist forward motion and therefore a faster time than a shorter boat that goes off course much more easily and sits deeper in the water. Between men and women, the small size difference is irrelevant. If anything, the length of the arms and legs, which create the driving force in the various strokes, could make the biggest difference of all, outside of superior strength.
When I was auditioning to the circus show 'Le Reve' in Las Vegas, we were 6 guys going into the 'water tests' part of the audition. (Le Reve is a water and floor combined show)
4 out of the 6 were ex-gymnasts/acrobats and the other two, me among them, were martial artists.
All of them could flip every which way, and were strong and fit, but when we went into the water tests, it was a surprise...
It started in a 200M swim. Freestyle and not timed. The first 50 meters had to be chest stroke. (Or whatever you call that in english..)
I think all passed this. (Although I was first! and I am not a good swimmer...)
The second was a 25 M underwater swim. I think 4 out of 6 passed this.
The third was a simple test - stay floating for 10 min. Apperantly, this was very difficult for the guys. I was the only one who completed this part successfuly. It was funny to see all those fit, ripped and oriented guys struggling to stay on top of the water for 10 min. Part of it was of course bad technique, but also the low percent bodyfat was also a factor, I assure you.
The synchronized swimming coach who supervised the test was making fun of everyone, and they dropped like flys.
Ido.
Hell yea it's hard! Congratulations, by the way
In drownproofing here's how it works: Your wrists are tied behind your back. Your ankles are tied together. The sequence is performed nonstop. It's like 30 guys at a time. You perform this in a 50m pool and you do everything in the 10 and 15 foot sections except for the travel. First you jump in and bob up and down for 5 minutes. Very easy for me because I sink to the bottom right away, making it easy to jump back up for air when I want it. The more buoyant guys actually had trouble with this part! That was funny to me. Anyways, after 5 minutes they have you do a front flip and a back flip under the water. Then you come up to the top and tell them you're ready, and they throw your goggles in the pool. You then go down to the bottom, pick them up with your teeth, go up to the top, and travel to the side of the pool and give the instructors back your goggles. They then tell you to go to the 15 foot section and float for 5 minutes. Remember, our hands are tied behind our backs and our feet are tied together. You have to stay on top of the water, you can't touch the bottom. You fail if you do. You had to pass drownproofing to go into hell week when I was there. You are not allowed to move more than 5 feet from your position, which essentially means you have to stay right where you are. It's much harder to float in one place. This is face down. So, about half the guys were able to just take a big breath and float with no effort. Most of the rest would have to use a small dolphin kick to stay on the top while they got new breaths. Myself and three or four other guys were halfway drowning the whole time because we sank so fast that it was a constand struggle. I personally had to get in an egaggeratedL from the hips, dolphin kick from there to the surface, kick up and get a HUGE breath so I wouldn't sink too fast, get back into the L at which point I was 2-3 feet under the water, and kick back up to the surface. I kept doing that for 5 minutes. It was awful and there were several points where I was so far down that I really thought I might suck in water. After that you do a 100m travel. You aren't allowed to touch the bottom at any time, instrictors with snorkel masks go with you the whole way to watch. If you hit the bottom, even in the 4 foot shallow end, you fail. we went 50m down to the shallow end turned around awkwardly, and went back to the deep end, another 50m. Once your head bumped the wall in the deep end they pulled you out of the water.
I will absolutely challenge any low bodyfat person to complete the float in that manner without extreme difficulty. 
We sink. I wasn't even that low at the time, MAYBE 10%. I was around 200 lbs when we did drownproofing.
Just so some of you guys who are wondering whether Ido's experience was some sort of fluke, I decided to share that. We practiced for 7 weeks and people still failed. You have to be a damn good swimmer to even get into buds. Better than the rescue swimmers They're only considered class 2 swimmers, we were class 3 or class 1, which ever was the Navy's highest swim qualification, for whatever you want to say that's worth. The basic test just to get in is 500m combat sidestroke or breaststroke in 12.5 minutes or less. I did mine in 8:08 the same week we did drownproofing. Not world record numbers by any stretch, but not nothing. We had to travel 50m with a 45 lb weight plate in a blacked out mask one morning, that was hilarious! And a bit difficult. Anyways, I want to try and illustrate that even guys with strong swimming ability who are specifically trained for a task have difficulty with floats and certain aspects of swimming when body fat is low. It happens, quite literally, even to the best of us.
Nice story slizzardman, that was a fun read. 
When I am "in shape" (low bf%) I can't float at all, not in a ball, not in a pencil float. And i'm not a bad swimmer, above average for non-swimmers at least. Dunno what that's worth, just saying.
I should have responded a long time ago. Let this thread die if you guys want. The fact that you claim to sink to the bottom with air in your lungs is something I have never seen personally. I have heard of it, but never saw it. I had a friend who was about 8-10%, and he complained of feeling heavy in the water, or his legs sinking, but never sunk from the top down. My legs sink too, without any kicking, but not much from the chest up. I'm about 15% bodyfat. Truthfully, I don't get it. I guess if you have very massive muscle that overcome the buoyancy your lungs provide, you will sink. I say that, because their are many swimmers with low bodyfat (below 10%) who can float. What I originally mean't about Poliquin was that when swimming freestyle (or long axis strokes) he probably doesn't attempt to keep his posture level; raises his head, and lets his hips drop. Giving him the feeling of swimming uphill. Obviously, you are the opposite, and are proof to what many people say, that "rocks" can swim, and swim well.slizzardman said:JL said:Of all the common strength moves, I think that is the most transferable. Problem is, even the 50m freestyle is not taking less than 24 strokes (and that is practice laps cadence). All out is rarely ever under 32 strokes, and upwards of low 40's. I wonder if there would be any significant transfer to anything over 100m. I doubt it from the look of the swimmers in the 200 on up. Also, I believe Poliquin is wrong when he says women are built better for swimming. Men are taller, and a longer boat overcomes the resistance of the water easier, think sculling shells. Combine that with superior strength, and it is really bad match up. About Poliquin calling himself a boat anchor, he simply does not know how to use his body. You lungs are your flotation device, and your kick keeps you level. Most people have a crappy kick.As a big guy, I think you are slightly wrong about your opinion as far as Poliquin not knowing how to use his body. He may not, and you might be right about that, but I do and I stay straight, but I go down FAST. I can take a full breath, to the point where my lungs hurt, and walk on the bottom of the pool. This made certain parts of drownproofing very easy for me at BUDS, and other parts, specifically the damn float, extremely difficult.
I think Poliquin is referring to a higher bodyfat percentage by gender as his basis for saying women are "built for swimming" but that's more than off-set, at least in shorter distances, by the fact that bodily protrusions like hips and breasts create drag points that cause an eddy behind them, slowing the swimmer. Men are more streamlined as a general rule than women and create less drag. That's why competitive womens suits, the good ones anyways, have inserts to go under the breasts so that there is a smooth contour. And extreme compression, to even out the body's curves. So it really depends on how you define "build for swimming.
As for sculling shells, a longer boat goes straighter, but more surface contact with water pretty much always equals more drag, so the length is useful in the sense that it does not change direction as easily, and helps reduce the depth of the boat, creating a straighter line with less water to resist forward motion and therefore a faster time than a shorter boat that goes off course much more easily and sits deeper in the water. Between men and women, the small size difference is irrelevant. If anything, the length of the arms and legs, which create the driving force in the various strokes, could make the biggest difference of all, outside of superior strength.
About the racing shells, I think the pressure that the longer boat( same profile, more weight) places on the water it is cutting, offsets the increased surface friction of the hull. I tend to think that taller people might benefit more from the greater surface area on their hands and arms, than the idea of piercing water, or offsetting the force of water better with increased mass. Swimming with hand paddles will open anyone's eyes. The longer boat thing was preached and practiced by many coaches back when I payed attention in 2000-2003. I'm inclined to believe in it, but yeah, it is only part of the picture.
The other thing I brought up was that many people have a crappy kick. Has little to do with most peoples' leg strength, and more to do with lack of plantar flexion. It may sound insignificant, but it isn't, not on computer simulation, or in reality. Most elite freestylers can sit on a deck with knees locked, and touch their toes to the ground. Nobody really trains this but swimmers. Some coaches have concluded that some people's ROM is so poor that their feet cause more drag then propulsion. I've heard stories of people doing kicking drills and going backwards; their feet act like hooks. Most people's ROM is good enough to keep their hips level, and even provide some propulsion. This is a tremendous advantage for vertical kicking, because it allows you feet to create more force towards the bottom of the pool. Maybe when some people try to thread water, their kick pulls them under, more than it keeps them up. I might try this tonight.
Stew smith talks about the kick and foot plantar flexion in the swimming section of the 12 weeks to buds workout. You're right, bad flexion can screw you up. For me, that wasn't an issue. I can't claim to be able to touch the floor, but I can make a straight line down my shin to my big toe. Foot position has far more to do with kick propulsion than most non-swimmers would think.
My sinking was even more weird, because I was at 13%. There was only one guy bigger than me, and he didn't float either. Of course he quit before drownproofing but during practice he was pretty much like me. With long axis strokes, keeping the body straight helped me a lot with forward swimming, but only when I could keep enough speed going. My glide was not able to be as long with the combat side stroke, but with enough speed I still had a good glide. Dolphin kicking was the real killer. I was at 45 degrees the whole time... it was awful. More than twice, I was fairly close to inhaling water.
back to Poliquin really quick:
I have been reading Poliquin's theory 1 and 2 manuals and he mentioned a "front levers + skin the cats" in one of his routine designs! I can't imagine he meant anything besides what we refer to. Very interesting.
Cool! Are you doing PICP lvl 1 and 2 Ortprod? And if so then when?
Yes sir, I am doing the level 1. I am really excited because it's in RI in March. I registered back in November and I think it was sold out by the beginning of January. Very cool stuff and word has spread around my gym about the effectiveness of the principals I have been following. Structural balance analysis is what I was really interested in, going into this but there is much more that I have learned and implemented within the last 4 months.
Cool! I'm doing level 1 in April and probably level 2 and biosig during or right after summer. Structural balance is definately one of the things that attracts me the most too, would you mind maybe posting a small review after it's done? I'm just so excited/curious 
I would also be interested in a review.
The information is priceless, that I can tell you off the bat. The computer program for designing workouts that Poliquin sells is awesome too (especially if you are a trainer). Speaking of which, are you a trainer Razz or are you just doing this for kicks. I would suppose you make some good money if it is the latter, heh.
It is amazing to have so much information laid out in a convenient manner to read and absorb. I know that most of what I am learning is prerequired because there is not going to be much time to go over it during the time I am at the PPC.
I'm not a trainer yet, except for friends and family which are all showing good results so far. I am however aspiring to be a personal trainer/strength coach/nutritionist sorta deal. I consider the money paid for seminars an investment that will come back to me sooner or later
Most certainly. Personality is huge when you train people. You can have the greatest info but it you are impatient with people, or you don't know how to convey the information, you/they will get nothing accomplished. Teaching is a skill much like anything else but most people are not good at it. Information overload is another thing to keep in mind.
Did you sign up already? Study now, don't wait. It's totally worth your time.
For the biosig, you also have to invest in a pair of these:
I'm already signed up
I will have to keep those calibers in mind before the biosig, thanks So excited for PICP. Getting to be part of the Poliquin forum is something I'm looking forward to aswell. How does the strength program work? I didn't know it was released yet.
I was referring to the theory 1 and 2 manuals you receive when you sign up. A lot of Poliquin's info is out there in his books and on the web but having it coherently placed together is like a new frontier for me. I highly recommend reading theory 1 and immediately reading theory 2 because it fits together and I found myself coming up with many questions that are answered in theory 2 while reading theory 1. My only critique of the theory 1 is that there are not enough examples of routines laid out with the principals so you have to do a little bit of brain work to apply them. I think that it might have been done that way on purpose :wink:
I am going through the forums right now and I stumbled upon a long discussion started by Coach about maximal strength. I want to chime in with what I have learned but it would take a LONG time to explain what I have come to know about it. (not implying that I am a genius/elitist at all, just that there is a lot of stuff to it)
I still have not received the manual. Good you reminded me that I need to email them about that.
ORTprod, how would you say the Level 2 manual is ? I've signed up for Level 1 and I'm already loving it so far, I'm just wondering a bit about what kind of information is in there.
My friend Steve Pemble and I both agree, they are worth doing simultaneously because the information is synergistic; all the gaps I found in level 1 were filled with the principals in level 2. I have started coaching olympic lifting with some of my colleagues and programming olympic lifting optimally seems to be covered in level 3 and 4. The complexity of the theory goes deeper and deeper when the training age of the athlete is increased and sport specific programming is much more than 5x5 training or "chest and tris/back and bis". It's very interesting stuff if one can get past the initial cut and dry material.